Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I got to work from my very first year at some of the biggest financial services companies in the world. I can't shout out client names, but if you look at the COVID of the Wall Street Journal for the last 20 years, my clients are all over.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: Something I admire about you is that you're smart, you're tough, you're kind, you have a love of learning and a love of God, and you want to share all those things with people, and you do it so well.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: I'm a 50 year old divorced woman with nine tattoos that loves the Yankees and still probably swears too.
And I know in my heart God is with me every single moment, every single day, when things are good, bad, ugly, hard, sad, happy, and everything else in between. And I laugh sometimes at some of the things I see and I'm like, it's like an inside joke from God. And just being able to see that beauty in the world is just magnificent and such a gift.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Jessica Kosuchi.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: This is so awesome.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Great to see you, Dodd.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Great to see you. So we met here at Princeton University a while back and we just started talking and I'm like, okay, for one, she's got these cool tats.
And I thought I got to know this latest story and everything. And so we just started talking and I thought, you know what? I interview people from time to time, and I think it would be such an honor and blessing if you consider sitting down with me. And you're like, absolutely. And so time goes on. And here we are at Princeton.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. Look at how this God moved everything that we could record here today.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And the sound, it's incredible. This is such a great space.
Well, let's just dive in. You're from the Bronx.
Talk about that.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: I loved how I grew up.
It wasn't easy by any stretch of the imagination. Didn't have much, but had a good work ethic.
My. They figured out a way to send me to Catholic school, which in the Bronx is the best way for a blue collar kid to get an education in a safe way. And yes, religion was an important part of that. My grandmother took me in a Catholic church every Sunday and I made all my sacraments and.
But, you know, it was more from a educational standpoint that was the focus of why I went to school there. And I don't know how they figured out how to find money to get me violin lessons.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: I didn't know you played the violin.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Yeah, when I was little. And my grandmother picked it, she said, because it's the hardest thing. So Start there and work your way down. So the standards were set high.
My grandmother was brilliant. She's my first friend and inspiration for a lot of things.
She. I get all my brains from her. My mom got. My mom is actually didn't graduate the 9th grade. Both. Neither one of my parents made it out of the ninth grade. My biological parents. But my mom took a test for Mensa, so I was blessed with some natural smarts.
And my grandmother was one that all of that came from. And being an immigrant woman born in 1931, she really didn't have the same opportunities that I had at all. But she tried to instill in me a love of learning and work. She ended up having four careers later on. English teacher, microbiologist, psychiatric social worker, all these amazing things.
So I laugh now that I went back to school, graduate School at 51. My sister's like, that's Graham. Here we go.
One of the most important things that she instilled in me was that I had, and I joke about this, a big brain and a big mouth and one. She wanted me to do something good with it.
She also wanted me to study something that I loved. And at the same time, I kind of went back and forth and I said, we're poor.
You guys have sacrificed so much for me.
She went to college much later on and put herself through this after she had her children.
But I was the first one who had the ability to go the right way, if you will go way to college, study.
She had hoped I would study something that made me happy.
But I looked at college and, like a bunch of my friends, that it was vacation, vocational school. It's like, okay, I have the opportunity to do this. I want to make sure my family never has to worry about money again. And so that's kind of the path I took.
But bringing it back to one thing about my grandmother. She went to high school with a woman who became her best friend, my aunt Mary McHugh.
And they were friends from when they were 14 till they both passed away.
My grandmother passed away at 86. She passed away after my Aunt Marian. But they were both in their 80s and they both had such strong viewpoints on everything.
We'd go out to lunch, and I'm talking. I'm eight years old. And they would be debating politics and not in the way that we do it now.
They would have an intelligent debate and not fight and agree to disagree. And the only thing they would fight about is who was going to pay the check. No, I'm paying this Ty. No, I'm paying. And then they would look at me at 8 years old and ask me what I thought, and they expected me to start formulating answers.
[00:05:31] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And so you wonder how I ended up in law school, right?
Well, I can't shut up either. And so they really instilled critical thinking in me.
And that even though I was a woman, that's not something that was off the table. In fact, that was required. I never was treated as less than because I was a girl.
There were tons, and don't get me wrong, tons of very traditional things that I still love and I still do and I love about our culture.
But education was just important and viewed as important for girls, boys, everyone, you know, and that was. They viewed. They really believed in the American dream. And I am a living proof of the American dream. Where else can a child, a parent who didn't make it out of the ninth grade, whose father, biological father, was in and out of jail, got to put themselves through college and law school and beyond that and see the world? I've been to five of the seven continents, 40 of the 50 states. I keep going and get to be a part of so many beautiful and wonderful things. And most importantly, give back to her community. I mean, that's the American dream, right?
[00:06:56] Speaker B: There it is. And that's something I just admired, admire about you, is that, I mean, you're smart, you're tough, you're kind, you have a love of learning and a love of God, and you want to share all those things with people, and you do it so well. Let's talk about the love of learning for a minute. Okay, so go to college.
NYU Law school, attorney in New York City. Right.
And there's tax law. Talk about that and just what you do with that, because I know you've got this.
You know, people just think, oh, she's a student at Princeton now and you are, but there's about five other hats you're wearing.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I mean, so it's funny. So I didn't know what major to pick when I went to college. Again, you know, not a lot of guidance. And I was really good at math and really good at classics and Latin.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: Usually don't go together.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: Don't go together, really. And I don't know why, but I loved all the ancient history and the mythology and Latin.
Somebody said to me, oh, you'll probably get a better scholarship if you pick math. So that's what I did. I ended up at Boston University because they gave me the most money that. That's it. I didn't. You know, you don't go look at colleges, not when I was young and poor. So I just followed the money trail.
And then I ended up switching into finance because at that time I'm like, oh, I have to get a job.
And. And I'm not knocking math teachers at all. Please don't take that. But I was like, I got to. How can I feed all. All these. Make sure all these people are fed and housed on a math teacher salary in New York City.
That's a knock on what teachers get paid, not teachers.
So I ended up switching into finance. And then, you know, the big mouth kept going and some of the things. And people were like, you should go to law school. Maybe you should go to law school. And I thought about it and, you know, again, it's the immigrant kids. Be a doctor, be a lawyer, be a doctor, be a lawyer. And I wasn't dissecting anything. And I love animals, and I couldn't do it.
So I ended up in law school at nyu and I actually hated it in the beginning, I'm being honest, it was really hard for my math brain to handle arguing both sides of everything, which is a great foundation for the rest of my life, but was very hard for me in the beginning.
I actually thought about being a prosecutor, protecting us from the things that go bump at night. But I knew at that point my heart was too hard, meaning that I did not have a merciful heart at that point. And I didn't think that I would be capable of doing my job in the way it could be, allowing some leniency, cutting some deals with certain types of offenders. There are certain types of offenders. I absolutely to this day, would never. And I think we should have harsher penalties, but that's a different conversation.
So being in law school and realizing, okay, criminal was not the way I was gonna proceeded. I started taking tax classes, and that was a way for me to bring in my finance underground a little bit of my math brain.
And. And I enjoyed them. And I excelled. And I got recruited right out of my second year of law school to a firm that I stayed at for 18 years.
And I got to work from my very first year at some of the. With some of the biggest financial services companies in the world. Like the. I can't shout out client names, but if you look at the COVID of the Wall Street Journal for the last 20 years, my clients are all over. All over there. And that's not to brag. It's just seeing I got thrown in the deep end.
I was very lucky.
I went to work actually an accounting firm, not a law firm. And I actually had a. A different quality at work because I was deep in.
Involved in the businesses of my client versus redrafting similar documents again and again.
But I worked like a beast. I mean, I was working 70, 80 hours a week for a really long time.
I got relocated four times.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:11:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I got. I thought I lived in New York, Miami, Charlotte, D.C. back to New York. And you'll appreciate this one. The last move.
This was after I was a partner. At this point, they came to me and my grandmother had been diagnosed with cancer at this time, and I was in New York and they wanted me to move to Dallas.
Let's just say that did not go over very well. And I was quite comfortable in my position at that point to give a very forceful no with a bunch of colorful words around it, especially as the
[00:11:41] Speaker B: big Giants fan that you are. And Yankees.
[00:11:43] Speaker A: Yes, Giants and Yankees fan. And I was just like, hailstorms, what ice storms, desert. I don't think I can handle that and not having any water around me. I'm a big water baby and swimmer. But also, there was no way I was leaving New York when my grandmother had cancer. Absolutely not.
I very blessed to have been with her and around her to the end.
And that was very important for me,
[00:12:10] Speaker B: especially the impact she's had on you to be able to go.
Yeah. And so you were able to kind of take a break to be there with her. And you had a good friend that was sick as well.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: Almost immediately after, one of my best friends in the world.
She was 42 at the time.
Got diagnosed with stage 4 cancer in multiple places in her body.
The most vibrant human being I've ever met in my entire life got diagnosed. And it's all 9, 11 related, which, you know, we're recording this in September.
Last Friday was September 11th, and that was extremely hard. She married two boys. That one wasn't even in high school yet.
And she was a fighter. We were like, all right. We rallied the troops, the girls, like the Avengers. And all of a sudden we're like, we all had our rules.
I'm organizing doctor's appointments and paperwork. Like, it just fell into where our natural capacities, you know, who was helping with extra food at home or the boys. Like, we all kind of just slipped into our roles. And, you know, at that point, it's like, I'm gonna fight. I'm gonna do everything I can.
And for the first year, we're like, she's gonna make it. She's gonna make it. She's great. She's a little thin, but she's gonna make it.
We were all praying together constantly. Her relatives outside the country, they were doing rosaries, they were praying. She was Catholic her whole life.
And, you know, we just had hope at that point. And she was always a fighter. I actually had a podcast many years ago called Boldly Spoken, and it was inspiring stories of women doing bold, brave, and bad blank things.
And it was not pg, so I'm going to leave some words out. And, you know, we talked about, she.
She was fighting it and her faith in God and her love of her family. And she still her spirit. I always say Lydia.
My life before Lydia was like the beginning of the wizard of Oz. It was black and white. And after I met her, it was Technicolor.
She was the first person that let me be me, gave me the freedom to inspire me to be me. We would always go dancing a lot when we were young and fun. And she had this really high pitched squeaky voice. And, you know, we talked about that. And I. And I'm so proud and happy, in fact, that I have that recording when she talks about her love for her family and her boys, because her mom and her boys can hold on to that now.
But it was, it was a. It was a hard time. My grandmother and then Lyd eventually passed about a year after that, and that was pretty devastating because you really lost
[00:15:14] Speaker B: probably two of the most important people in your life within a year of each other, basically.
[00:15:20] Speaker A: Yeah, two years. It was, it was, it was two years and then Covid, you know, all at once. And I don't want to actually diminish another death that happened during that time. I mean, I was not raised with my biological father, but I did have the opportunity to meet him a couple of times. And the September before my grandmother passed, he passed by, unfortunately overdosing in his bathtub on my grandmother on.
On his side, his mother's birthday, out of pretty much a broken heart. And that I found out three days after he was buried.
And I found out where he's buried and I drove my butt to Staten island, two hours away, and I went by myself to, I thought to pray and make peace and cry. And, you know, that was a different type of heartbreak that we never got to know each other and that unfortunately, he never found the peace in his heart and soul to fight the addiction at the end, no matter how hard he tried. And so it was a bit.
It was a bit for for, you know, two years right there and then.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: How long had it been since you had seen your dad when you found out he had passed?
[00:16:45] Speaker A: Since I was 14.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: And so you found out he had passed and then three days later, you go to his grave.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: Yep.
Yeah. And, you know, my, my adopted dad, who I call my dad super dad, he offered to go with me, which just shows, you know, how he is. He's like, I'll just sit in the car. I just, you know, if you're upset, I just want to be there and make sure you're okay. And I was like, no, I love you. I appreciate that you want to do that, but I want to do this myself because I, you know, I just kind of want to talk to him and God by myself for a little bit.
[00:17:17] Speaker B: I'm really curious. This has sparked something within me. So I remember you. My dad, My dad was a veteran and he was cremated. And I remember when they told us, okay, it's, it's ready. You can go see where the ashes are at the, you know, we've got the ashes, but where his name plaque in the, you know, the national cemetery.
And so I remember, I don't exactly know where I'm going, but I'm. I'm going there to, to find my dad or find his name. And I remember I was there by myself.
And I'm walking around and I'm looking at all these names and, you know, the two things we will all have on the. Each of us has on the, on the tombstone, you've got the years of your birth and death, and then there's the dash in the middle, and what does that really represent? You know, and so, and then, so I'm reading these names and then all of a sudden I see my dad's name and I just said, oh, dad.
You know, it was just. It really hit me when I saw his name with his year of birth and death and the death.
When you saw your dad's name, how did you feel?
[00:18:25] Speaker A: Well, even before you got to understand, I never called the man dad, even.
And that's not insulting to him. I mean, I met him when I was 13, so it was.
And it was only like a two year stint.
And there are things that I know that he tried to see me in between those years when he was sober. And my mother and my grandmother thought they were doing the right thing. And I don't judge them for this because they couldn't trust him to stay sober. So I understand that.
When I saw the grave, it Made me so sad for him.
It broke my heart for him. It broke my heart that he had a very hard and traumatic childhood.
There were 10 kids in that family. He was the youngest.
Their father abused all of them, and I'll just leave it at that in all sorts of fun ways and abandoned them.
And so his mom had to raise 10 kids and they've all been through trauma and a bunch of them ended up having substance problems or medical problems and all sorts of things. I am close with one of my aunts and my cousins now and it just broke my heart. It broke my heart not only for his life, but also how he died. He died because he was so brokenhearted that it was his mom's birthday, you know, by himself in a bathtub like.
And try not to cry the mascara off because I can't fix it in here, but it was more of that. And then I also just wanted to have a talk with him because I know it sounds so silly, but I knew at least at that point he could see me.
Whereas the last time he saw me I was a 14 year old kid.
And I'm like, well, maybe we can get to know each other now.
[00:20:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:31] Speaker A: And so Chad, I wasn't.
I was never angry at him. I was actually never angry at him.
When I thought he disappeared from my life when I was 16, I didn't realize, I didn't find out until much later on because he fell off the wagon. I didn't realize that my 16 year old boyfriend knew because he had seen people on drugs and told my mom he did the right thing. I don't blame him either. And my mom told him, that's it. You have to stay away from her.
I did not get that part of the story till many years later.
So I thought he just disappeared.
And what I carried with me for 30 years was you didn't love me enough to stay. When you finally got a chance to meet me, you didn't like me.
And so I never blamed him.
But.
And I obviously got past that. I knew the truth. And certainly knowing about and understanding addiction now, knowing that has nothing to do with me, me.
But I also. It was the first time I felt like we could have a chat even though he wasn't there. I know that that sounds crazy and I've probably, you know, had more prayers for him now than, than ever, but it was just.
It's a waste. It's.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: It's the.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: I. I wrote an article about this because I said, you know, there's a line from a Bronx Tale that says the saddest thing in life is wasted talent. And I just thought, what an abject waste, you know, for everything I've heard. He was kind, he was funny, he was great with his hands. He loved music, he was handsome.
All these wonderful things. And even if he was none of those things, but just what a waste,
[00:22:21] Speaker B: what would you have said to him?
[00:22:22] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Jessica.
Nice to meet you.
You want to go have a slice of pizza and talk? I hear you like music.
Tell me, what's your favorite song? All those things. Sorry I'm crying.
Turns out we both love muscle cars.
How about you teach me how to drive stick shift? Because I never learned.
Oh, gosh. What did you think when mom got pregnant with me? You know, he was so young. He was 17.
His ex wife, I had lunch with her.
They were married on. And well, for. They were together for a long time when he was. When he met me, before he met me through addiction. And they got divorced when his addiction finally moved on from heroin to crack, unfortunately.
But she gave me pictures of me that he kept in his wallet his whole life. Like, he only had like three,
[00:23:24] Speaker B: and
[00:23:26] Speaker A: they were scrunched up. And it just meant a lot. It meant a lot, you know?
[00:23:35] Speaker B: Do you have those pictures?
[00:23:37] Speaker A: I do, I do. And she actually also gave me. She's a lovely woman. She gave me other pictures of him throughout his life. Throughout his life that I can see. I also, strangely enough, look just like him other than my eye color. My mom used to say that too.
When people would say, oh, she looks like you, she's like, nah. And she'd say, nah, she's our father's clone.
Pretty much.
Pretty much. So that was also weird growing up with a face of someone that I. Yeah. Didn't know well.
[00:24:10] Speaker B: I have no doubt that he was proud of you.
[00:24:14] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:24:15] Speaker B: And just what I know of you and how. How proud I am of you.
Thank you.
And how much more God is proud of you.
[00:24:24] Speaker A: Thank you.
That's the most important.
I always say. Somebody asked me once, what do you want to hear God say? Yeah, when. When you finally get to meet him.
And I do this in my great grandfather's voice. So it's hard. I wish you guys had this gravelly voice and he had this nickname for him, me. That doesn't make sense to anyone. But you'll get the gist.
And it's, you did good, Gibo. Like you did. I think you did good. And. And that's all I've ever wanted, is to make all this worth It.
[00:25:02] Speaker B: So, you know, and you. I know you had mentioned this to me before, that your. Your father was a believer.
And so in that being the case, you will see him again.
What do you think you'll say to him then?
[00:25:15] Speaker A: Oh, I think I'll just give him a big hug and I'll be like, it's about time.
It's about time.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:24] Speaker A: Like, you know, and be like, I think I'd just be so happy to see him happy and healthy.
I think all the things that I would want to say anyway, and I'd want him to just tell me all about himself, all the things that he ever wanted to say or share with me or have a laugh or, you know, the things when. When someone.
When a biography is written about someone, there's always things missing or colored through their lens.
[00:26:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: So all I have about him is really a biography other then two years. And they. And I didn't see him consistently for two years. So, I mean, we're talking like a couple of meetings during those two years.
[00:26:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:14] Speaker A: I would like the autobiography.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think you're gonna get that.
That's gonna be wonderful.
Well, you know, the scriptures talk about how life's a vapor or a mist. It just goes so fast. It really does.
[00:26:28] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: And now that you're on this side of 50 and you've accomplished so much, my goodness. I look at your bio and I'm like, wow.
And yet here you are at Princeton Theological Seminary.
What prompted that?
[00:26:52] Speaker A: So many people ask me this question, and it's not an easy answer, but I always believed in God. I really. I always did. I. I could not have gotten through my life ups, downs, and everything in between without a faith in God.
And I really reflected on why
[00:27:24] Speaker B: on
[00:27:24] Speaker A: the other side of 50, you reflect on a lot of things in your life. And I never look at myself as a victim of anything. I'm like, okay, I experienced this.
I've been given grace to come out the other side happy, healthy, and sane. Sane. Ish.
So why. What was the purpose of this? What can I do with this to help someone else?
And I, you know, I prayed a lot on that. I prayed a lot on, you know, why did God save my life?
Why did I come out of all of these things when so many people don't?
And at the same time, I was very, very blessed to start attending a church that not only allowed, but encouraged me to ask questions and get into the Word.
Not knocking my. My younger education, but I remember asking questions in religion class, in Catholic school, and you know, I was younger too, and they were like, you'll understand when you're older. You understand when you're older.
And that was frustrating and especially considering the type of person I am and, you know, how my grandmother raised me to be. Ask questions, find answers, think for yourself.
And so I was in a place where, you know, I started taking Bible study and just absorbing everything like a sponge. And I always would joke, I'm like, am I asking too many questions? Is this crazy? And then in the beginning, I would always caveat. I'm like, sorry, Catholic questions here. I'm just trying to understand differences.
And I just, after the first kind of, let's call it like formulaic reading to just digest what's, what's in there. Because I had never read the Bible from start to finish before then getting. Seeing the deeper beauty and the meaning and, and how it fits in every circumstance. I mean, you know, the, you know, when I first thought about the story of Hagar and when she names God El Roy, the God who sees me, I mean, that just cracked my heart open.
I mean, as a trauma survivor myself, to know that God was there with me in every moment and to feel it and then to see it written in the words of the pages, it was just so beautiful.
So I just felt, you know, spirit was moving me to dive into the word more and learn more. And at that point, I had been a lawyer for 26 years and worked really hard. I had my own business. And I just said.
And then I had also had a medical scare.
I had a medical scare of my own. And during this about two years ago, and we didn't know if I had cancer.
I don't. My church, family, everybody was super supportive. I'm very lucky.
I don't, I don't say I'm not probably the first person my doctor said who said rheumatoid arthritis. And you went, yes. I'm like, but it's not cancer. I'm like, I can handle this. If I know what the enemy is, I can fight it. That's what I look at, right?
So I said, you know what, God?
I don't know how long I've got here and I'm already a cat on my ninth life. After everything I've been through, it's time to start using all of me to do something that I can be proud of, that I can use all of this, you know, my God given smarts and this big mouth and all these experiences to help other people, but also to learn and go back and study Something I love.
So it's a departure, but not really, because even in law school, I wrote my thesis paper on unequal application of the First Amendment to different religious groups.
[00:31:30] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it was always something I always loved. Comparative religion and understanding and finding similarities and things I would read on my own. You know, I know it's not, you know, Caesar or Virgil, but, you know, looking at the Bible and breaking down text in that way is also something that I love. And the history that comes around in the early church. And I thought about, okay, well, maybe I'll just get a certificate. I'll study something on my own and that just supplements my knowledge, and then maybe it'll help me serve our community a little bit better. And so I was snooping around and looking at different programs, and I was thinking of, you know, Princeton is regarded as the top school if you want to teach. And actually teaching is something that I love. I used to love teaching my staff a lot. I taught English to Italians in Italy. It's just I taught yoga. I don't know.
And I said, let me look on their website and see if maybe I can audit a class, see if I really like this, see what's going on.
And then I saw this program that was on their website called Damascus Road, and it's a program for executive leaders who were in transition.
[00:32:50] Speaker B: That's you.
[00:32:51] Speaker A: I could not make it up. I just started laughing. I was like, okay, God, here we go.
And it's like, you know, are you trying to discern, you know, the next phase of your life? You've had success, whether it's, you know, true retirement or just shifting in your career? This program.
And it was, this is December 20th, and they were starting a cohort January 13th. And I emailed and I said, hey, you know, I know it's too late for this year, but can I have more information?
And we talk about it maybe for next year might be something I'm interested in. And Nate Phillips, who works with a program here, he was in his office on December 20th trying to wrap things up for Christmas.
And he emailed me back in five minutes. And he goes, what are you up to today? I've got time. We can. We can talk and get on the phone. And I thought it was going to be a five minute conversation.
An hour and 20 minutes later, after Nate and I talked about, you know, kind of my background, my faith, what I was thinking about, what I was going through.
He's like, unless something crazy comes up in your application. It was also past the application date by the way I plan to be here in Princeton on January 13th.
[00:34:10] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:34:12] Speaker A: And I was like, okay. All right. Lord, we're doing this, I guess. And Nate was. Even told me. He's like, I probably won't even read your application until after Christmas, but just plan on it. He read it. I got it in that night, and he read it the next day also. Just caveat, you know, I was looking at other schools, and I was thinking about, you know, what do I want to study? How do I want to study?
And also, you know, as someone who was running her own business at the time, it was.
You know, we had the first medical scare, which was about two years ago, after all the other stuff that I went through.
And then, actually, I should rewind this. In last October, I got another thing. Surprise. I had to have surgery.
It's okay. It's a gallbladder removal surgery. Not to be gross, but if any organ had to go like, that one's useless. Let's. I was just like, let's do it and get back to work. But I really couldn't work the way I wanted to in my business. But my brain was still there. But I had. My brain was working. So this girl starts watching Yale open courses on the New Testament at home.
I went through 26 lessons.
[00:35:26] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:35:27] Speaker A: My friends are like, you're a lunatic. This is what you watch when you're recuperating from surgery. I'm like, yeah. And I just.
I loved it. I loved it so much, and I'm eating it up. So that also started me thinking about seminary and Bible study. And with. In conjunction with my Bible study and everything else, I'm like, I just.
I just wanted to learn more. And I thought it would only help me not only make sense of my life, but help other people. And so that's why I was on Princeton's website. So I wanted to add that part in, and then started the program in January, which was great. And it went through May, and started talking with professors here and the president of the school, Dr. Walton. And this is not a commercial for Princeton, by the way.
And I just said I was thinking about applying to seminary, but, you know, my background is law and finance, and I haven't been in School in 26 years.
[00:36:20] Speaker B: And.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: Is this crazy? And I didn't even think I would get in.
I had. Actually, one of the reasons why I was looking at auditing a course was some of my research said, oh, you might want to make yourself look like a serious student. At least start taking one of the Biblical languages on your own or have some other scholarship so they can see.
Well, needless to say, I was encouraged, convinced. Apply now. Why wait? Why wait? And that also fell into my head, Jessica, tomorrow's not promised. You know, just apply. What's the worst that happens? They say no.
And I did apply to other schools at the same time. I did not think I was going to get into Princeton at all.
I'm very happy in my life in Tampa. Princeton's program is fully on campus.
[00:37:08] Speaker B: Cold for half the year.
[00:37:10] Speaker A: Cold for half the year, which I don't like the colds anyway. And then, you know, when I got the RA diagnosis, I was like, see, I have a doctor's note. Why cold isn't great for me.
You know what? I just, I loved my life. I loved my community. I do love my life and community in Tampa and can't wait to go back and serve them.
But I just said, let's say it's not my decision. It's up to God, right?
So I applied, I got in and I got in with a massive scholarship. And I just said, how can I say no to this? How can I say no?
[00:37:44] Speaker B: God made it clear.
[00:37:45] Speaker A: God made it very clear. Exactly. God made it very clear. And then a few other life things happened that really accelerated it.
You know, the market's not great for selling houses. My house sold within a week. I was trying to downsize and simplify my life and do a few things. Just a lot of things happened that it was very clear that I was meant to be here. And actually that's how we met.
It was the last week of my Damascus Road program and it the following weekend was the admitted students tour day. And we met on the tour and I joked we were the grown ups, the old people. The old people, Exactly. And that's how we started talking.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: Yeah. God is in the details.
[00:38:28] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:38:28] Speaker B: There's no doubt. And I've often thought, you know, if God somehow inspired the words of a book, and I love bestsellers and the Bible's the bestseller every year, year after year, even though you don't see that in Barnes and Noble or wherever.
But don't we owe it to ourselves to read and know what it says? Whether you believe that it's somehow unique or not, not just others opinions of it or how it's been misconstrued, construed or used in negative or manipulative ways, but just to read it. And so when I hear someone that says, yeah, I'm going to seminary, okay, well why?
And they don't Say, well, I'm called to be a priest or preacher or whatever. But they say I just want to know the scriptures better. I want to know more about God. I'm like, that's awesome. That's beautiful. Thank you. And you're doing that and you're thinking teaching.
[00:39:13] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: Which I think you're going to be an outstanding teacher. Oh my gosh. Because with your background, I know you're going to look at things from different angles and people will be allowed to do that.
[00:39:22] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: Which is so great.
[00:39:24] Speaker A: Oh yes. That's a huge thing for me.
Freedom of thought. I always say, going back to my lawyer training, the Bill of Rights are there for a reason. We have freedom. We have all these freedoms that are God given and that we chose to enshrine as a country which I love very much. But freedom of thought, who and academic expression is very big. It's a big deal for me.
I did not want to go any place where I felt that I would not be comfortable using my voice and my words and being free to express my opinion. I've been on campus three weeks.
That remains to be seen. But hopeful. But yes, certainly in my classroom. I mean, how could I not? I mean, look, going back to the story of my grandmother and my aunt Mary.
[00:40:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:40:15] Speaker A: Intellectual debate is how you learn.
[00:40:17] Speaker B: It is
[00:40:19] Speaker A: my whole thing is when I meet someone who thinks differently than me, I want to say, okay, tell me why you think that way.
[00:40:25] Speaker B: How did you arrive at that conclusion?
[00:40:26] Speaker A: How did you arrive at that conclusion? Not that you're bad because you think that way. Obviously I'm not talking about cannibals.
[00:40:32] Speaker B: Well, we've lost a light and that's okay.
We'll just keep going. So Jessica, I know you've always believed in God. You've believed in the power of prayer and I guess four years ago you find yourself at a church in Florida and it really changed your perspective and I guess your just approach to God and your faith and would you talk about that a little bit?
[00:40:55] Speaker A: Sure, yeah. You know, I was raised Catholic. I was always practicing Catholic. I went to, you know, the whole time I was married a fairly conservative Catholic church.
And then I got divorced and life happened and I actually, even before the church I met these amazing clients of mine that are faith based investors and I was invited to event and I heard a woman speak and my heart just broke open and I knew it was was time and I wanted to be close to God again.
It was never that I felt like I was far, but I just.
God was always distant so when you're raised Catholic again, I'm not knocking on anyone, but, you know, you kind of. There's an order of operations, you, guardian angels, saints, the Virgin Mary.
But you never think about talking to God or Jesus on a one on one basis, like they're too busy. That's a joke. I'm stealing that from Kathleen Madigan. She's got a skit about this. So I never really had what you would call a personal relationship with God.
And then I start going to this church that was recommended to me by a friend in Tampa, and it completely changed my life. It changed my whole view of what belief looks like and a relationship with God. So, yes, I talked about the Bible study and everything there. But if you don't. I didn't know you could tell God you were mad at him. I didn't know you could tell God you're disappointed. I didn't know you could sit there and say, why the heck did you let this happen?
[00:42:37] Speaker B: Lament.
[00:42:38] Speaker A: Yeah, lament, basically.
Or question. And it was.
I always felt when I was young, I always felt closest to God. Not when I was in church, when I was outside in nature. I always said that. I said, that's God's church.
God made that, not man.
And it is right. And when I started going to this church, it's simple and complex at the same time.
They really encourage, you know, they always say we're just broken people trying to be better followers of Jesus.
And not only from, like, they're encouraging you from, like getting in the Word from the educational side, but and really understanding who God is through the Word. But they encourage you to have this personal relationship and talk to God. And it's just so simple and beautiful. Like, you can talk to God as a friend.
You know, today in class, actually, we're in the Old Testament and we're talking about Moses. As you know, God was Moses's bff. Well, and, you know, looking at the words there, and he's. He's debating with God and he's telling him no, and he's having all this. And I said, you know, unless you see that and experience it and then you do it for yourself, you don't know how freeing that is and how much more of an intimate relationship you have with God.
And that allowed me to let go of a lot of guilt and shame and heartache and everything that I had been carrying around my life because I realized God was with me every day, that I could give this to him and lift my burden. And me experiencing that, it was Just so freeing and so beautiful and I just want that for more people, you know, that's why I'm doing this.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: Well, it reminds me of that, the anonymous footprints story or whatever. And it's like there's two sets of footprints on the beach and you're a beach person, you know, and the person you know, let's say it's you, looks back and says, God, I see the two sets of footprints when you were with me and during my life, but the times when I struggled most, there's only one set of footprints. Like where were you?
And basically God says, oh my dear child, it was when you needed me most. And the reason why there's one set of footprints is because I was carrying you.
[00:45:08] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. I mean it doesn't all tighten. Hagar Elroy Today I'm, you know, this is my second go through of the Bible recap. And we're in the book of Daniel, you know, the fourth man in the fire. Yeah, I, there is no way I would be here if God wasn't with me every single day of my life. There's absolutely no way. There's no way to explain half of the things, the good, the bad and the ugly.
And that's why also I want to teach and talk about this stuff because I want other people who have gone through stuff that look like me, you know, I'm, you know, a 50 year old divorced woman with nine tattoos that, you know, loves the Yankees and still probably swears too much. And I know in my heart God is with me every single moment, every single day when things are good, bad, ugly, hard, sad, happy and everything else in between.
And I laugh sometimes and some of the things I see and I'm like, it's like an inside joke from God. And just being able to see that beauty in the world is just magnificent and such a gift and, and I just want to share that with people. And that was the blessing of being at a church like this that just encouraged that again and again. It's about your relationship with God, you know, and that just forms us into better people as we're trying to get more Christ like every day. We're all work in progress.
[00:46:42] Speaker B: It is, it's a journey, it really is. And there's never a moment when we're not in the presence of God. So at Princeton you've been here a few weeks and do you feel like you have the freedom to ask the questions and learn and be challenged and look at different perspectives or is that yet to be determined?
[00:47:00] Speaker A: Yet to be determined?
[00:47:01] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:47:02] Speaker A: Yet to be determined. And I think that that's just a function of how some of my classes are structured.
So I was used to law school, which is very Socratic method, meaning that a professor, you read a bunch and then yes, the professor does lecture, but you're getting called on constantly. You're getting asked to respond to somebody's point, point encounter, point, point, counterpoint. You know, if you make an argument, then you're asked to argue the inverse. Right, right. So you, you, you're better at seeing both sides. I think because a couple of our classes are large, we, we don't really get the opportunity to do that. So it just, it remains to be seen, put it that way.
[00:47:44] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:47:44] Speaker A: Rains to be seen. Ask me in six months.
[00:47:46] Speaker B: Okay. Well, it's interesting. And I'd gone to Duke and one reason was because I wanted to be around people from many different very, you know, various backgrounds that did not think the same theologically as I do.
And I think that can only make us stronger. I mean, we need to know what we believe and why we believe it and how we arrived at that conclusion. And can you defend that and does it make sense?
[00:48:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I just said, I specifically said that as well because a few people were like, oh, well, depending on their viewpoint, oh, they're going to think this way and you think that way or vice versa. And I said, one, I want to go to an ecumenical school because I want to understand where everyone's coming from. I want to understand the different faith backgrounds as well.
And it would only make my apologetics better, you know.
[00:48:38] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:48:38] Speaker A: And if you don't know what apologetics are, it's defending the faith, basically defending your viewpoint. And it's just like being a lawyer, but for religion, basically.
[00:48:46] Speaker B: No, I love that.
[00:48:47] Speaker A: And it just gives me different perspectives.
And it is interesting. Princeton does have, and I looked at this, they do have a clause in their student handbook, in their academic handbook and their policies about academic freedom.
And I did read that very closely because it came up in a conversation about Title IX and a few other things that getting reported. And a friend of mine discussed it and I went back and I said, as long as we have academic freedom, that's fine. And I did go back and they do have a robust policy around that. And so, you know, I am, like I said, I'm a very big freedom of thought, freedom of speech girl. And ingrained in me, that's always been a part of me. Like I said, it's a God given right and it's enshrined in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that I love. And so, you know, it concerns me so much in this country, how many halls of academia do not permit that anymore and actually force people out. And I'm not just talking about students, I'm talking about professors.
It affects who they hire, how they hire, who gets grades, who gets elevated into PhD programs. Think about that.
Our next generation of researchers and teachers have to go through vetting committee.
Well, what if your vetting committee only has one viewpoint? I don't really know.
The sky is purple. I don't want to pick a viewpoint.
And you're like, no, it's blue, you're out. So that means you're not going to get the opportunity to teach, you're not going to get the opportunity to be a researcher. You're not going to get an opportunity to affect the next generation's minds.
So unfortunately, I make a Star Trek joke about this.
You know, I'm afraid of the Borg of academia, the hive mind, where you must assimilate or die.
[00:50:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:50:54] Speaker A: And unfortunately I've seen that in a lot of institutions. And now I'm seeing the ripple on effects of 17, 18, 20 year olds who have just, and I don't care which ideology, they're just fed one and they've never seen both sides. That's so alien to me. And I keep going back to the table with my grandmother and my aunt.
[00:51:16] Speaker B: Didn't realize the education you were getting there. Yeah, yeah.
[00:51:19] Speaker A: Such a, an education. It was freedom of thought and expression education. At the same time, how lucky was I that I got that?
And I just wish that for everyone. And I hope that we have diversity of viewpoints in this country because that's how we learn and grow and innovate.
[00:51:40] Speaker B: Absolutely. What's the only way for there to be a genuine community?
Right. Agree to disagree even with the apologetics when, you know, when Peter says, you know, be ready to give that defense, or when Paul, you know, whoever speaking, do so with gentleness and respect.
[00:51:55] Speaker A: Exactly. Right, Exactly.
[00:51:57] Speaker B: You need to do that. And I think sometimes that does not happen. And so I have a feeling you're going to be this pioneer, this champion for this cause. Well, and I think it does go back to that table with your grandmother and in those. I think that'll be awesome.
[00:52:10] Speaker A: Well, you know, the old podcast was called Boldly spoken for a reason.
[00:52:13] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:52:16] Speaker A: I am, I think at this point a friend of mine in class said he's like, you're just fearless, you know,
[00:52:23] Speaker B: and I, that's the name of the new podcast Fearless. Or the. Or the book Fearless.
[00:52:27] Speaker A: Oh, you never know. I. I have a title for the book, but that.
That comes from something else, a phrase that I heard, and that's what the sub. The beginnings of my sub stack are.
[00:52:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:38] Speaker A: And it's called no Saint, but it's. And I hold that in my heart. Thank you. Because someone once said, and I. I don't know where the genesis of this phrase is, is that there's no saint without a past and there's no sinner without a future.
[00:52:55] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:52:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:56] Speaker B: I just want to thank you again for your time and your heart and your transparency and just the joy and the light that just exudes from you and through you. And you're going to be a great teacher.
[00:53:06] Speaker A: Oh, thank you.
[00:53:07] Speaker B: And whether that's in a classroom at a school like Princeton or a church or just out there, so hopefully it's someplace warm.
[00:53:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:16] Speaker B: All right, well, we're going to do this again. Thank you.
[00:53:18] Speaker A: Thank you so much. Thank you.
