Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Gavin Ortland, it is a pleasure to be with you today. I am grateful for your friendship, and I have been amazed by how your YouTube ministry has grown, the impact you've had on countless lives.
And I'm so excited that our listeners today are going to be able to hear some of the highs and the lows, the good, the bad, the ugly that you've experienced along this journey as a YouTube influencer. So let's just start from the top. Pick it up wherever you'd like.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Yeah. I started a YouTube channel in 2020, August of 2020, a couple months into the pandemic.
And it began to grow. And over the years, to my astonishment, I began to feel just this deep sense of feeling called to that form of ministry. And it's a big long story, but the heart of it is just needing to loving everything I'm doing, but just needing to focus a bit more on where I'm seeing the most fruit and where I feel most drawn. And we've talked just a moment ago, before we started, about our desire for revival, our heart for young people. And that's just so deep in my heart. That's what I'm trying to give my life to.
[00:01:10] Speaker A: I think in this digital age, and when we know that so many of the young people are on social media, I mean, it makes perfect sense.
At what point did you. I mean, I'm sure it was gradual, but at what point did you realize, and maybe talking with your wife, like, yeah, we're just going to have to pray about what this may look like to shift, to have more of the focus be on this new. This online presence, this ministry.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: I can't remember an exact day or time, but I can think back on just some of the thoughts that were coming in. One of them is I was struggling a little bit with burnout. Not deep into it, but realizing I was kind of bumping into that space and just trying to think, how do I pull back?
The other thing I remember is just the notes I would be getting. And I've always felt like in my ministry, I see some fruit, I see God at work. But the things I was hearing from people were the kind of things you hear where you say, okay, this is working. I need to do this. I need to push into this. And some of those notes just meant so much to me. You get emails or you get a Facebook message and somebody saying, hey, here's how the Lord used this video.
And those began to stack up to the point where I felt like, okay, I need to start thinking about this. And, yeah, it was a huge mindset shift. I never would have thought like that. I mean, no one talks about the dangers of social media more than I do. And so it's kind of. I say to my own astonishment, because I genuinely know there are temptations in that calling, but I also think God can use it for good.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. So let's talk about the. Because it seems like a lot of the traction. I mean, I think initially, I don't think you set out to say, yeah, I want to debate a lot of the Catholic apologists in that you were more or less just providing a lot of sound doctrine in church history and just equipping, you know, other Protestants.
At what point did this kind of shift to where it's like, all of a sudden you're making videos, you know, about purgatory and the assumption of Mary, and so I want to know about that. And then when did you get that first, you know, invitation or rebuttal video?
[00:03:10] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I don't remember the first rebuttal video. I'd have to go back and do a search. I'm sure we could probably find out. I remember the first debate I did. And this shift you're talking about is definitely true. I mean, when I began, I had just published a book on the existence of God. And so the basic reason I started a YouTube channel is I was thinking, lots of people will never read this book, but they are interested in these ideas. And YouTube is for better or for worse. It's where people go to debate things and so forth. So my initial thinking was, this will be apologetics, it'll be theology.
Historically, I haven't really been someone who's been in kind of Protestant versus Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic type conversations. I'm interested in that, but it's not really been my focus. And then I think what just drew me into it was just the need. Yeah, I really think it was just the. That simple. You know, there's all these people giving arguments against Protestantism, and I was just amazed at how little there was on the other side defending historic Protestant views. Part of my journey has been to try to find this balance of speaking the truth, but doing it in love and without any lack of personal respect, trying to maintain positive relationships.
I have friends in these traditions. I think there are Christians in these traditions.
So. And I. And we can learn from them, you know, and the issues are not simple. So in light of that, one of the things I always try to do, and I'm very imperfect in this. I mean, believe me, I look back on things, and I can see how I've maybe gone in different directions at different times, trying to tweak things.
But I try to just never even go to thinking about motive. Even in my own heart and mind. I just always assume the best motive and say I'm going to be.
I'm going to err on the side of naivety rather than cynicism just because that helps me. Someone else might approach that differently. I'm not saying that's a law for everybody, but I do think it's good to be careful about that. So I don't even think about the motive. I'm honored that there's engagement because it means they think it's worth engaging.
Some of them are pretty nasty. I mean, there's harassment. I mean, I've had to contact a lawyer to protect my family from some people. Those people are not representative of any major Christian tradition. They're just troubled people.
But that's a dynamic, and that's part of the price you pay.
But for most of them, I feel honored that they engage. And then I just try to navigate it. And the big question is, you know, I really want to give my life for Christ. So the big question is, how do I steward this? Because even just apart from the topics we're addressing, like, if it's about purgatory or something like that, that matters. But even apart from that, there's this broader question of how are people watching Christians disagree?
And that's one of my deep convictions these days, is part of apologetics, is without compromise, to be ironic, to be gracious, to be truly loving, to truly wish well upon the soul of that other person, to pray for them. That is not just a talking point that we move on from. That's part of our message. That's part of how we commend Christ and so very imperfectly. I'm seeking to do that and learning as I go. I don't want to just do Protestantism. I'm happy to do that. I'll still do that. I have a few videos already planned out in that territory. But I also just have such a burden for people who are deconstructing. There's a lot of people who are. Who are leaving their faith.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: I want to speak into those conversations. I am grieved at people. I think sometimes people, they leave the faith without really looking down the road and really thinking through how dark the implications are from an atheistic perspective, there's not a lot of hope there.
[00:06:47] Speaker A: I'm just grateful for everything that you're doing. And just to find someone like minded that's so burdened by this, I mean, I lose sleep sometimes. I mean, I just pray constantly for revival and for people to just take the scriptures seriously.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: Me too. I pray every day for revival. And I think as we've talked about, you know, Gen Z and the younger, younger folks, a lot of these people are very open, they're very spiritually open. They don't even necessarily have baggage in some cases at all. They're just open because they don't have any background to it. Sometimes, sometimes it's very new to people.
So yeah, I do pray for that. I hope for that. And it's a thrilling thought that the Gospel is really true. I mean, I come back to this in my own work in apologetics, when I study the resurrection of Christ, I can't tell you how happy that makes me.
And I come back to it, I'm like, oh, this is really true. And we really have good reasons to believe that it's true.
[00:07:40] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: I've never been an advocate that historical arguments can get you to this kind of mathematical certainty. The approach I take is more of, kind of an abductive approach of saying what's the best way to make sense of the world. Yeah, but with the resurrection of Christ, it's kind of amazing how strong of a case can be made. I was blown away. I looked into it and I thought, oh, Surely this happened 2000 years ago. Surely you can't make that good of a case.
I was kind of astonished at just how difficult the alternative explanations for the launch of the Christian church and the basic facts that we encounter is. And so I come back and I say this is true. And then you just say, think how thrilling that is that there actually is a transcendent hope. Think how wonderful it is that life doesn't end at the grave. You mentioned Tim Keller. He's got a great quote about the resurrection and just how it's done. Different from other views of the afterlife and how it's the happiest possible view of the afterlife because it means the suffering of this world will be turned to glory for those who have trusted in Christ. Yeah, I mean there's nothing that could be even possibly happier than that that I can think of that not only will suffering end, it'll actually be turned to good if people really allow that to land upon their heart. I think it's hard not to be moved by that.
[00:08:54] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely, yeah. And I think in having the courage to, well, one engage with friends who don't know the Lord and some that may proclaim, you know, have a different religious affiliation, denominationally or whatever. But to let this be at the center of our conversations, to pray for opportunities to truly, you know, to talk about the Lord, to talk about the Gospel, the truth, you know, and to do, even to have debates, I mean, I think it's such a healthy thing. I just, I'm always, I find so much hope in the fact that I'll go to some of these parochial schools, these Christian schools, these secondary schools, these high schools and you know, they have a debate team or club and they'll actually, I mean in some of these non covenantal Christian schools where you don't have to be a Christian to go there and I was a part of one where you had kind of the, you know, the leading atheist of the school that was always, you know, keeping people on their toes or in check and you know, sometimes annoying, but yet then you had the Christian who was just Jesus, everything and sometimes annoying, but you had to have them reverse roles. And so this self professing atheist kid had to read some of the great works of the Fathers in scripture and make the case for theism, for Christianity and he had to have this apologist, this Christian kid, try to argue for atheism.
But when they did it and when we had this really just candid dialogue and I said, well what did you learn? Tell me what you learned the most. And they said, well, we realized that we just had these so many preconceived notions and assumptions that were just wrong or that we just heard about the other side or whatever. And we also realized how little we knew about our own beliefs that we had been espousing for so long. And so I have so much more, I'm so much more sympathetic or empathetic now for those that don't see things eye to eye, but just the process of having an opportunity to have genuine dialogue and debate in a healthy way.
What it's done just for my own soul.
And I think that's so important and I know you're really getting at that with Truth Unites.
For those listening or watching this, if you're not familiar with truth unites on YouTube, you need to subscribe and start listening to Kevin Ortland because he's providing that space for so many people. And I know many friends I've had that they're not getting this type of in depth analysis or conversation. And so thank you for continuing to do what you're doing. I mean, what a blessing.
Yeah. And I Look forward to the books that are coming out as well.
Let's talk a little bit about. Because I've had a few people say I watch Gavin religiously, but I don't know anything about him other than he's got a wonderful wife and five children and they now live in Franklin, Tennessee.
But let's talk. I'd love to. I'd be really curious to know a little bit about, if you don't mind sharing, just what the average day looks like in terms of just your spiritual journey with the disciplines or how do you start the day? Are you a morning person? Do you find yourself reading or studying or thinking or praying more at night or is it throughout the day?
What does that look like?
[00:11:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not a morning person.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: Nor am I.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: So when you have young kids, you kind of learn to adjust, you know, all of that. I mean, everything is flexible, including the daily schedule.
I'm a big believer in keeping, in doing quiet times, but keeping them non laborious and simple. So my practice is very simple.
I'll find a book of the Bible. I'll have a sheet of paper in there and I'll just read until something prompts me to pray.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: And then I'll write out a short prayer and then I close the Bible and come at it the next day. I like writing them out because then you can see them, you can look back on them. Sometimes it takes me two minutes, sometimes it's 10, you know, and then I'll. I'll do other times of prayer that are longer, but they're more sporadic. And a lot of times I like to go on a walk or just be outside. Okay. So I, I loved hiking in California. There's not as much hiking here as there was in Ojai. Ojai was perfect for that. So you could just walk right up to the trails from our house. But just anything I can do to be outside.
And then when I swim also I. So I swim and bike.
[00:13:02] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Almost every day. All right. And that's usually in the mid afternoon. So I'm usually up early, lots of coffee, working hard, both with helping in the morning with the kids and then studying, working on things. And then I exercise in the middle of the afternoon so that I'm not trying to work the full. I start to crash, you know, at a certain point. And that kind of. Then I can get a few hours of fresh work in after that. And then the evenings, it's all about the kids. 5 to 8pm is the most energetic part of the day.
Everything you can imagine wrestling, playing soccer. Soccer has been the thing lately in the backyard. Play soccer with the kids.
But yeah, in terms of spiritual disciplines, a lot of times. So when I'm swimming or biking, that's where I was going with that.
I've found that it helps to just practice gratitude.
My life is too busy to try to be super intentional about things, but if I can just have the discipline of when I'm in the water or when I'm riding a bike, I can't be distracted by my phone. And so my mind is free and I'll just try to identify things I'm grateful for. And just simple prayer. Lord, thank you for this. Thank you for this. And that practice has absolutely changed my life. It's been way more powerful than I thought. I expected it would make a little bit of a difference. I would say on any given day, it changes my emotional status by about 30, 35%.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: I agree. No, I do, too. Even when you're upset or angry at someone, or if you've been, in your case, just criticized to no end, I think just to still be grateful and to even pray. The whole praying for enemies, I think it's an Anselm. You're an Anselm scholar, right? He has a quote, and it's something along the lines of, oh, it's like praying not for their demise, but for their salvation, but yet also realizing that at the end, he's not far from any one of them in terms of that don't know Christ yet.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. You know, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Even in times where I've been depressed or I've been suffering, and the criticism doesn't affect me too much. There's been a couple times where, weirdly, it doesn't hurt my feelings, but I get down simply by the darkness of it. Sometimes that's happened two or three times where this inundation comes and you just feel. It's like, I don't think it's affecting me, but then I realize I'm down and I'm sad. And I think it's just the sheer darkness of it. For the most part. The criticism doesn't hurt me too much, but there's times where I've been suffering in some way, and gratitude is possible even when we're suffering. You can just thank the Lord for the air you're breathing. You know, it's amazing if you draw your mind to the. To the blessings in your life, how many things you can think of. And I found that as a way to sustain yourself through those Times.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: I know there are a lot of those in vocational ministry that listen to you quite a bit, and you alluded to the fact of just maybe on the brink of burnout, and that was part of what God used to know, that you needed to make some adjustments.
But it was all healthy in a good way. But just for those that might be listening, that might not be aware of the fact that they need to step back or.
What could you suggest?
I just think it's all too common that once people realize they're burned out, I'm not going to say it's too late, but there should have been some boundaries or parameters or things in place or safety guards or whatever just to help them know that, you know, maybe I need to step out and let someone preach for me this next Sunday. Or maybe I need to get away. I mean, from your own experience, or maybe not personally, but through family. And you're this lineage of preachers and that. What advice might you give?
[00:16:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I've thought about this so much in my own life with my phone. I've gotten very disciplined. There's certain rooms of the house I never bring my phone in.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: There's certain times of the week I just totally unplug, and I have to revisit those boundaries every three months or so and see how am I doing with this? Because that's a big cause for me of times where if my brain is just going too quickly, I get this unpleasant clutter in my mind. That is.
It's not healthy. So that's one part of it.
But when I give counsel to pastors about this, one of the things I talk about is friendship. I think a lot of pastors are lonely, and it's just an easy vocation in which to not make real friends. Oh, yeah.
Because you're giving yourself to people, but you're doing so in this unique role. And so sometimes they don't see you as an equal as much. And there's always that dynamic of you being the pastor. So just being able to allow yourself to invest in. And then you move a lot sometimes as a pastor, too. But friendships are a huge part of life. I mean, one of the things that makes life happy is when you have good friends.
[00:17:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: And so that's one thing I love to encourage people to think about, because sometimes we overlook that. We just forget that this is a big factor in things like burnout. Another thing would be hobbies.
[00:18:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: You know, I think it's really healthy for pastors to have something that they enjoy.
Absolutely. Isn't in their ministry.
[00:18:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:08] Speaker B: And it's whether it's a sport you get into.
[00:18:12] Speaker A: You mentioned biking and swimming and.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff. I started playing soccer with some folks in Ojai, and I loved being out there on the soccer field, and nobody knows that I'm a pastor now. Eventually they found out, but I wasn't relating in that mode. It was just guys playing soccer, and we weren't even talking that much. You're just playing. But something about that was really rejuvenating for me. So I think just finding healthy hobbies that in outlets. And then the other thing I just would say is, don't feel guilty about really asking for a sabbatical when you need one or other kinds of rest. Because I've had pastors who say I thought I needed to leave the ministry. Then I went on a sabbatical, and I realized I just needed a break. And six months later, or even one month into it, you might feel differently. And so just not feeling guilty.
For those of us who don't like to ask for a lot, it can be a lot to feel like we're asking our elders for whoever we're asking. But just recognizing this is a good thing.
And it goes back to Genesis 1 and the principle there with the Sabbath rest. So it's not wrong to just completely unplug and take time to restore your soul.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: No, I agree. I could not agree more. You know, and I'll shift just a little bit. But, you know, when the Wesleys, the brothers, you know, the Holy Club, the pejorative nickname that they were given, you know, they would have these groups, but there was a lot of accountability with the small groups. And I don't know if you've heard this, but there was one question that they would ask of one another every time they met was, how have you sinned today? How have you sinned today? And I thought, wow, okay, that would definitely take some close friends to ask me that, or that I would want to be transparent with. But to your point, I think we've got to have that. You know, we've got to have time for rest. But I think also accountability. And I'm curious with. I mean, you've got your brothers, you've got others that, you know, walk the journey with you for many, many years.
But with this, I'm not going to call it newfound fame, but like this. I mean, you're growing in popularity in that.
Do you find yourself out just in public, maybe not in Franklin or maybe in Ohio, you know, where you Were in California.
Are people recognizing you? I mean, is it like, oh, that's Gavin Ortlander. I know he looks familiar. What's that like?
[00:20:25] Speaker B: That is a weird dynamic of being on YouTube where people see your face so much. It has happened a couple times and it happens increasingly a little bit. So it's weird. I don't know what to think about that except just to be grateful because usually people are saying something kind. So you're just grateful for that.
And then, you know, with all that, you just have to. I have to come back to this prayer. Lord, if there's any favor I have, if there's any influence I have, make me willing. Make me hold it open handedly and try to steward it for the kingdom. And make me willing on a dime to just give it all. All up.
[00:21:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: Very loosely, if you call me to do that.
[00:21:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: And a simple prayer and reminder that just helps me is realizing how fast life goes and how soon we will be standing before Christ.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: Because I turned 40 last summer and each year just feels like it's flying by.
And I'm aware of that, that everything of this world is so fleeting.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: It really is.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: And it just helps me to remember that.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: No, I agree. My grandmother had a little plaque we would see before we would leave her house. And it's just one life. It'll soon be passed. Only what's done for Christ will last. And so we all have a eulogy. It's being written. One day we'll be gone and someone will write up, and rightly so. All these nice things that we were allowed to do or accomplish and never the negative. And that's fine and that's good and I get it. But being able to reflect and look back.
I'd like to ask the question in terms of adversity, you know, and what you learned from it. Like, is there a thing or two that maybe happened along the way that really drew you closest to God?
[00:22:06] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: That you care to share?
[00:22:08] Speaker B: Yeah. There's been a couple things that my wife and I have been through together.
I think I could probably share.
Well, two things that come to mind. One would be ministry suffering. We've not suffered in grandiose ways as many people do, but we've suffered in ministry. And in one particular episode, not at our church in Ojai. Ojai was a wonderful. We have nothing but love and gratitude for that church. Previous to that, we had an experience where we were mistreated at a church.
I have instant compassion for pastors who are mistreated. I understand it's a unique kind of pain when there's betrayal, when your reputation is damaged, when things are said about you that aren't true, that really hurts.
And because being a pastor is such a joy and you give your heart to people, when there is a backlash or when there's mistreatment, it's a particular kind of pain just because of that love you have for people.
So that, that is something God has taught me a lot through. I think the main thing is to have understanding and empathy for those who are suffering.
I really, that's one thing I can thank God for.
I'm able to sit down with someone and really feel this instinct. It's funny when someone starts sharing if they're depressed or if they're really struggling with something and they're really scraping by, I just find in my heart this longing to just draw near to them.
[00:23:33] Speaker A: You've been there.
[00:23:34] Speaker B: Because I know what that feels like and I know how bad somebody needs a friend and they don't need you to say much, you don't need to have answers, they don't need your brilliant interpretations, but just love and presence and just a friend and just to be there, you know that. So that's something I aspire to be like. Yeah, the other thing I was going to mention is just going through times of kind of angst in my faith and there's been two episodes like that.
Nothing grandiose, nothing like, oh, some big fireworks, you know, just the age old question of what if I'm wrong or what if I'm missing something here? And just simple question of just working through things, how do I know that? You know? And in both of those times, God has used both of those. It's like the Puritans use this metaphor of when a storm comes through and it loosens the soil and you think the tree is going to fall over because it's being beaten so much, but because the soil is loosened, the roots go down all the deeper.
Both of those seasons of my life have given me this deeper sense of stability and confidence in my Christian faith. I love that in my love for Jesus, my confidence in the truth of the gospel. But with that too, there's an empathy of I want to help people who are struggling with doubt. That's not easy and it's a very common experience.
So I want to be a friend to those who are going through that.
[00:24:57] Speaker A: Yeah, no, thanks for sharing that. I really appreciate that. I think it was Louis that said you can't wholeheartedly embrace something as truth. Unless you first doubted it. So to convey to people that doubt is normal.
[00:25:07] Speaker B: It's.
[00:25:08] Speaker A: In fact, I think it's necessary and it's okay to work through it, and it's okay to say, I don't know, you know, And I think. And especially on YouTube, right, when you're in the middle of something and you're like, I'm not sure, but I'll get back with you. And I appreciate you being willing to offer that, say, well, I'll find that quote or I'll post it. Remind me in the comments or whatever to do that, because it shows your listeners or your viewers that, you know, you're on a journey and you're basically. It's almost like the pastor that, you know, you don't have. I don't know who said this, probably multiple people, but you shouldn't really be in the pulpit preaching a sermon that hasn't first impacted you. Right. And I think what I can tell from what you're doing on YouTube with Truth Unites is that you're truly being impacted by your research and what you're discovering, and then you're sharing that with,
[00:25:53] Speaker B: you know, the gospel is enchanting. And these topics I'm addressing, I hope people feel that. I hope, because I feel that, yeah, I can see these things.
This is thrilling. I mean, this is the great question, you know, the God question. That is everything.
It affects everything else. And you see everything else in its light.
And the truth of the gospel couldn't be more wonderful. It should fill our hearts with happiness. So I hope that comes across to people. And just as you said about saying, I don't know, that's one. That's the kind of apologist. I don't even know how I feel about the word apologist or apologetics. Sometimes that can connote things that are not things I aspire to. But there's good things about it, too.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: But the kind of apologist I aspire to be is one who's always willing to say, I don't know. Yeah, if I truly don't know. Because if I'm not doing that, then I'm actually not a trustworthy person to people.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: I agree. And I think at the end of, you know, the whole be prepared in season, out of season, you know, But I think the end of that with. Do this with gentleness and respect. I think that's where it comes in. Right. That you're. You're gentle, knowing that, hey, I'm confident in this. But I'm also willing to sincerely listen to Your, you know, your, your argument or your side, and when they know you're sincere about that, I think it just, it's disarming as opposed to just thinking, you know, I'm right, you're wrong. I'm going to be dogmatic and I'm going to prove to you that you're wrong. And I think for too many apologists that they may not mean to come across that way, but that's the tone and it's just really off putting, you know what I mean? I mean, we were talking about this earlier. About the worst thing would be, is if, you know, you approach a topic, not that you're scared of any of them, but that it would be so offensive or you would come across in a way that would be such a punch in the mouth from the get go that you couldn't even have the dialogue.
[00:27:36] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:27:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: That's the. In the book how to Disagree Without Being a Jerk, the first chapter is on kindness, and it's all about the way kindness opens up doors. It's not just a virtue that is good. It's also just helpful in dialogue. It just, you know, it creates space for listening and understanding. And I talk about the character Alyosha in the novel the Brothers Karamazov, and his simple, sincere kindness and lack of contempt, lack of looking down on others, lack of exasperation with others, you know, even in their wretchedness. He's patient. He's kind of. And that's what sort of redeems everything in the end. And I really believe that.
[00:28:17] Speaker A: I do too.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: People sometimes even make fun of me for trying so hard to be kind. And I know we can do it imperfectly. But I will always believe in the power of kindness. And it's not easy to do, to be truly, to wish well upon people in your heart.
It's not easy. It takes a strength and a resolve and a commitment to do that. But I just believe that's how we will be effective.
Just as you're saying from first Peter 3:15, that's how we'll be effective in promoting Christ.
[00:28:46] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. No, I agree 100%. And again, especially the younger people, they see through a lot of the facade, the mask, the bs, whatever you want to call it. And they know when you care and you sincerely are just meeting them where they're at and you're listening. Oh, the ministry of listening. Right. It's so powerful and yet often neglected because as leaders or preachers or whatever, we feel like we have to always be talking. And it's like, no, no, just, just be quiet. I'll never forget it was Dan Rather, CBS or whatever it was. But anyway, 60 Minutes, I don't know, but Dan Rather was sitting down with Mother Teresa and he said, you know, gosh, you're just this, you know, this saint and you're so revered and you help the poor just with most of your time. And if you're not with the poor, you're praying for and with them. And so just to talk about prayer for a minute, you know, when you talk to God, what does he say?
Or he said, what do you say to God? And she said, well, I listen. And she says, well, what does God say to you? And she says, he listens.
I don't know if you've heard that before.
[00:29:48] Speaker B: I hadn't heard that.
[00:29:49] Speaker A: But I think the ministry of listening and the power of that. From your own experience, has there been any particular writings that really prompted you to want to prayer in a different way?
[00:30:02] Speaker B: Yes.
The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence is in the top three books. Probably for me, that's impacted me. And it's a simple appeal in some ways that he's making. But just this idea that we can be mindful of God at all times. He talks about doing the dishes can be done as an act of worshiping God, being mindful of him while you're doing the dishes.
Simple idea, but just that idea of being of mindfulness to the presence of God and then in all things, opening up your heart to God, you know, whatever you're doing, having an open heart to the Lord and communing with God in all things in his creation, in a personal conversation with someone else like this, we're open heart is open to the Lord. It's so beautiful. It's such a powerful. When you realize that, it's like, how can I not have joy in my life?
[00:30:55] Speaker A: But when it's all said and done and someone's going to write that eulogy about you, what do you want people to say and remember about you when it's all said and done?
[00:31:04] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a wonderful, thrilling thought. To not need it to be about me, but because if, you know, if I want to be seen in some way or something like that, ultimately that's kind of suffocating and kind of a dead end. And it doesn't lead to the kind of expansive joy that Christ puts in our hearts. But if I want people to see something of Jesus through my life, then there's joy.
And that's what I want. I want people to see something of Christ in my life. I would love. As we've said, I pray every day for revival. I pray that there's so much pain in the world, there's so much confusion right now. The church is struggling in so many ways.
I would love if I could give my life to anything. I would love to be someone who in some way contributes to the end of people coming to Christ and a new wave of people experiencing the gospel.
I would love to see revival and renewal. I would love to see people who are confused and in the dark step into the light and understand how much Jesus loves them.
And so that's what I want my life to be about. That's what I want to be known for.
