Speaking in Tongues? w/ Grant Wacker

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Well, we all have these. We paint with these broad strokes and these generalizations. And I think a lot of people would say, wow, here's Grant Wacker. He grew up in a Pentecostal home. He goes to Stanford, to Harvard. You're known as one of the greatest historians, especially of history of Christianity in America, you know, in the past 50 years. And I think people are caught off guard and surprised to think so. You yourself thinks that this has actually happened with speaking in tongues, and have you yourself had that experience? Could you describe that? Speaking in tongues, Divine healing, gifts of the Spirit. Some say these things are weird, outdated. They have no idea how to think or talk about these topics. Who better to discuss this with than an emeritus historian, Dr. Grant Wacker, who for decades at UNC and Duke and has taught about the history of Christianity in general and Pentecostalism in particular. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Well, one thing I want to talk to you about today, because there's so much misunderstanding about this topic, is Pentecostalism. And you grew up in a Pentecostal home and your mother's father. So your grandfather Riggs, talk about him a little bit, because I know he was a leader, one of the earliest leaders in the Assemblies of God movement that started in 1914. And he was considered one of God's generals, a superintendent. [00:01:30] Speaker B: The Assemblies of God started in 1914, and he was a young man then. He was born 1895, and so he would have been about 19 years old. And the denomination was actually founded by young men, some women, mostly men, but they were in their 30s and 40s. Still lives a. It was a young person's denomination movement. We often forget how youthful those leaders were. But my grandfather was even more youthful. He was just a teenager, and he came in the scope of the Pentecostal revival in Mississippi, in Arkansas, and underwent what he understood be the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He would have been 19. And he went from there to Bible school up north, Elam Rochester Bible Trading School in Rochester, New York, later called Elam. And then he went from there to South Africa as a missionary. And there was an enormous missionary impulse in early Pentecostal days. It just flung people out all over the world. It's just extraordinary. And many of them believed. I'm not sure my grandfather did, but many of them believed that they would be enabled by the Holy Spirit to speak the languages of the countries they went to, even though they didn't know the language. So that's. Amy McPherson went to China thinking that she would be able to Speak Chinese when she got there. Okay, it didn't happen. [00:03:07] Speaker A: Did not happen. [00:03:07] Speaker B: It did not happen. But it took many years, maybe 20 years for Pentecostals finally to accept that this likely would not happen. But that's how they understood it. [00:03:19] Speaker A: But there were some cases of those that could almost what we would call in a supernatural way, learn a language. I mean, they would study it. It wasn't like it just popped into their head. Because I actually had a friend that went to the Miramar, Thailand, area, did go to training, I think, in Virginia, and. And he didn't, in a matter of weeks was able. Now, he was a linguist. I mean, he. But he did learn almost fluently. And so in some say, in a miraculous way. And if we go back to Pentecost in the Book of Acts, and in that context, that exactly what it was that people who did not have training or know that language, it would be, for instance, like, you know, you would start speaking fluent Chinese even though we knew you did not know Mandarin or Chinese or whatever. And the people would say, wow, listen to Grant Wacker, and you're. You're testifying to God's greatness or sharing the gospel. And it would compel them to say, well, tell me more. And so if that was the original context, you're saying that with the early Assemblies of God movement, they were going really back to the apostolic times. [00:04:21] Speaker B: They look at the day of Pentecost as the paradigm people were enabled to speak languages they did not know. They did it miraculously, and they did it to preach the gospel. Now, they never. Somebody. The early Pentecostals. Pentecostalism is much broader than the Assemblies of God. But early Pentecostals never held that you could speak another language for purposes of daily communication, talking about the weather or sports or something. They never held that. It was always that you were enabled by the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel. They were very clear about that. All right. And so any number of them went overseas for that reason, but many others, like my grandfather, went overseas. I don't know if he thought he could speak. He went to South Africa, and I don't know if he actually thought that he could speak what was the Benda language. I never asked him that question. But there are many Pentecostals who didn't go with that assumption. They just went because they felt they. [00:05:26] Speaker A: Were called obedience to the great commission of God. [00:05:31] Speaker B: And time fields are white unto harvest Time is drawing to a close. The Lord is coming. Now, this does get wrapped up, though, in Zionism, Israel Ism, if you want to call it that. And a strong sense that the end of times is imminent because of the situation with Jews. Jews later on, Jews are returning to Israel or Palestine. But even in the beginning of the 20th century, they did think that the movement of Jews had a great deal to do with their obligation to preach the gospel. [00:06:18] Speaker A: So if we back this up, I mean, it's a big leap there. But to go from the early church at Pentecost, and then I know you're an expert in the first Great Awakening, in particular with Jonathan Edwards and George. [00:06:31] Speaker B: Whitfield, experts, a strong term, but I'll take it. Okay, I accept it. Yeah. [00:06:35] Speaker A: And so we do know that Edwards actually writes about this. This surprising narrative. He talks about these strange occurrences or encounters. I know when George Whitefield, the great evangelist, comes over from England and. And he preaches at Edwards congregation, Edwards notes that he was moved to tears by this extemporaneous preaching, that his wife Sarah was evidently in some form of trance, and that there's. There was evidence. I mean, these are very highly educated people. Ivy League at the time, you know, with. With Edwards, his father, with some others. But. But they write about this in their journals, as does Charles Wesley. But what do you think was going on in the Great Awakening with Edwards and Whitefield and the itinerary? You know, itinerant preachers and I think. [00:07:17] Speaker B: There were manifestations of the Holy Spirit all through Christian history, and that many of those manifestations would defy logical parsing. Now, social scientists are going to come along and say, well, this is involuntary motor behavior. Okay, fine, you can interpret it in a lot of different ways, but it seems to me that that's all through Christian history. There's no question about it. And the great revivals, it's there. What is different in Pentecostalism is that they ascribe a particular theological. Two things. They ascribe a particular theological meaning to these events. They aren't simply events. It isn't simply the Holy Spirit moving people. All right? Which I think is what was the case with the Great Awakening. People are being moved. Or with the Wesleyan Revivals, people are being moved under the impact of the Holy Spirit. With Pentecostals, they go further. They take an additional step, and it has a very specific theological significance. And then for many of them, for Pentecostals per se, it becomes a sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. But then the next step, which becomes divisive in American Christianity, is then Pentecostals go on to say that this is normative, and without it, you are an incomplete Christian. And to be honest, this is why I'm not Pentecostal anymore. It's an invidiousness. It's great to say that there are manifestations of the Holy Spirit which are beyond our explanation. I've had those in my own life. But what I'm not prepared to say is that if others aren't following this, that they are lesser Christians. And that's what became so divisive. And that's why Pentecostalism generated such internecine, intense, internecing controversy in the early years. [00:09:19] Speaker A: Well, we all have these. We paint with these broad strokes and these generalizations. And I think a lot of people would say, wow, here's Grant Wacker. He. He grew up in a Pentecostal home. He goes to Stanford, to Harvard. You're known as one of the greatest historians, especially of history of Christianity in America, you know, in the past 50 years. And I think people are caught off guard and surprised to think. So you yourself thinks that this has actually happened with speaking in tongues and that. Have you yourself had that experience? Could you describe that? [00:09:52] Speaker B: Well, like a lot of kids who grew up in Pentecostalism, it was. I underwent great pressure from my parents and church also to do the same. Four years old. [00:10:07] Speaker A: To teach you how to do it or to experience it? [00:10:11] Speaker B: This is. It gets ambiguous. Are they teaching me? Are they wanting me to experience? There's pressure, tremendous pressure to speak in tongues. And I was 4 years old, and so I started doing it to accommodate my parents. And they're pressuring me just, you know, just, just let, let the tongue loose, all right? And you let the. As I recall now, it was in so many words, let the Holy Spirit take control of your tongue. All right? So, you know, you're four years old, you want to please your parents, and so jabbering becomes glad. Now, I really think there is such a thing as glossolalia, which is a kind of linguistic involuntary motor behavior that is a real thing. But it acquires theological meaning in Pentecostalism, and it becomes normative and invidious if you don't do it. And so then young people are pressured to do it. [00:11:10] Speaker A: So with the literal interpretation of the Scriptures, and. And you have the longer ending of Mark, the Gospel of Mark, chapter 16. And some would say the earliest manuscripts do not have those last nine or 10 or 11 verses which says, and by these signs, you'll know that they're genuinely saved. And it is. They'll speak in tongues. That they'll handle the serpents, drink strychnine, the poison, and not be harmed. Now there are some that take that so literally. I know in Jholo, West Virginia, there's literally a church of this that they do that to this day, you know, the snake handlers and some would say, well, you know, like, like a non bismarck pet snake. The snake knows if you're tense and you're not harm it or you're scared and you know, or if you're relaxed and then it will just, you know, slither around and not be harmed. With the venomous snake it's the same way. And so if there's a sense of fear or let's call it lack of faith, those are maybe the ones who are bit or stricken. But this is a real thing and it's there and it happens. And some die from the snake bites or drinking the poison. So when you're saying it's a theological. [00:12:18] Speaker B: Wait a minute, I want to back off there. I think the snake handling is almost an astronomically tiny part of the Pentecostal movement. It's there. No question it's there. But they've attracted any number of anthropologists have gone there to study it and. And then it gets inflated to implies everybody's handling snakes. [00:12:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:12:35] Speaker B: So it's a tiny thing. However, they get bit just as often as everyone else. I mean, they get bit and so there's no question that they're the principle. I mean these are men and women of principle. And where it gets much more complicated is when children are brought into the picture and they're a bit. But that's a whole nother story, church and state and all that kind of stuff. But I think there's no question that the gifts of the spirit have fallen all throughout history. And people sometimes have used them in wondrous ways and other times they've used them in malign ways. And people being people, very often it's the same person does. Sometimes we'll do it in benign ways and sometimes malignant. You know, we're all complicated people. [00:13:29] Speaker A: And so with the whole, the speaking tongues, I mean it still occurs. But you would say that even within the assemblies of God of the Pentecostal modern sense of the definition of the term, it's okay if you don't. Or would you say the majority still think that maybe you might not be. [00:13:48] Speaker B: Great question, great question, Dodd. To the best of my knowledge, I've been out of that tradition personally for a long time, so I'd have to be checked on this but to the best of my knowledge, within the Assemblies of God, you cannot be ordained unless you can attest that you have spoken in tongues, as they put it, the initial physical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Now they draw a distinction between the gift of the Spirit and the sign. The Spirit. The gift of the Spirit may or may not fall, and that's an entirely different thing. I wouldn't call it adventitious, but the Holy Spirit gives or doesn't give as He. It's always a. He understands and chooses. Okay? The gift of the Spirit is entirely different from the sign of the Spirit. Spirit. And the sign is not optional now. At least it wasn't until. I mean, fairly recently when I was studying this. Anyway. In order to be ordained, you have to attest that you have at least once in your life spoken in tongues. My grandfather, let's go back to him, General Superintendent, the Assemblies of God, and he would say that only once in his entire life had he ever spoken in tongues. It was not something he routinely did. He just wants. But that's all. [00:15:10] Speaker A: Was it like a private prayer language or was it something he did publicly and people noticed it? [00:15:14] Speaker B: I don't know what it would have been for him per se. And I don't think that's ever been pinned down for. There's no orthodoxy about it. For some people, it's a private prayer language, and all you have to do is say, I did it. [00:15:29] Speaker A: Okay, so just one time. [00:15:31] Speaker B: Just one time I had that experience. Yeah, one time. Although very often it's public, public, private. You know, there's ambiguity about that. [00:15:40] Speaker A: So what do you think the pressure was like when you were a child? And even today, for those that might, especially with young people, try to encourage them, or even for the older people in the congregation as well, to do that? I mean, they just emphasize it. Because I was at a church recently, there's a lot of people there, and they were literally had PowerPoint and encouraging people to do this. And I felt a little uncomfortable, and it was a little bit awkward. And what do you think the pressure is? [00:16:09] Speaker B: Well, I think it's huge. And frankly, I would say I'd be more than uncomfortable. I'd call it manipulative. And in a sense, it is idolatrous. It is reducing the sovereign work of God to a physical manifestation which you. Which you and I could track. I mean, so many things get drawn into my control, you see? And that's another part of it. [00:16:35] Speaker A: Because if it's really of God or. [00:16:36] Speaker B: The Spirit, it robs God of God's authority and integrity and choice. And it invests volition in the pastor and the congregation. [00:16:50] Speaker A: So within the Assemblies of God tradition that we've been talking about this, speaking in tongues is a sign of the Spirit's presence, the second blessing. That whereas with the Wesleyan, you know, Charles and John Wesley, the Wesleyan tradition, the holiness movement, they interpreted it a completely different way. Elaborate on that. [00:17:06] Speaker B: They did. So Pentecostalism. Well, let's see, let's back it up. Mid 19th century Methodism begins to spread out over a spectrum. Social, economic, theological. All kinds of differences over the spectrum. But for lack of a better term, we'll call it on the left side of the spectrum. We could flip this, but we could say on the left side of the spectrum. Increasingly there is an emphasis upon the literal interpretation of the Bible. The imminent return of the Lord. Second coming could be tonight. Biblical literalism, the imminence of the return of the Lord. Healing, physical, miraculous, supernatural healing. These things all come together. Primitivism, that is the restoration of the primitive church, meaning the first century church. Not primitive in the sense of rough, but rather prime. The first century church and more precisely, the apostolic church. Okay, so all these things are coming together. And so then what is the indubitable sign that they have come together and that we have been equipped for ministry, for missions, that we're ready for the second coming? What's the indubitable sign of all this speaking in tongues? That is the sign that the Holy Spirit as it's a linchpin. Okay, now this is a movement that develops within radical Wesleyan holiness. The movement and ambience it's moving toward. All of these views are coming together and it's getting increasingly radical, intense and invidious toward others who aren't part of it. Okay. And there are many good things. I don't want to make it all negative, you know, I mean, it's a family. I mean, wonderful things take place as well that has to be stressed. Okay, so they come together. And then there are the people who begin to speak in tongues and those who don't. Now, those who do say this is the sign of God's blood, blessing and the Spirit. Those who don't increasingly say that's not what's happening here. That what is happening here is either human manipulation or this is a sign of demonic influence. Well, now, that doesn't mean that all of them said that the speaking in tongues is the devil speaking with your tongue, Although there were a fair number who did that. The devil is taking control of the tongue and is speaking gibberish because the spirit, the Westerns would say the spirit of God is rational. It comes through. It's the Logos. Okay? It's the Logos. All right. And would God, would Almighty God descend into just nonsense, gibberish language? [00:20:14] Speaker A: Do you think that's what was happening with Paul's congregation in context, when he says, you know, we have to have an interpreter because it was gibberish, potentially. And he said, we've got to have an interpreter. Exactly. And so, and so today, or even in these, you know, the last 120 years, was, did that become common then where someone said, oh, don't, don't. Just, we don't want to hear the gibberish or the distraction, but we need an interpreter. And if not, then politely be quiet or leave the room. Have you seen that? [00:20:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, again, we go back to the difference between the sign of tongues and the gift of tongues. The sign of tongues requires no interpreter. In fact, interpreter is irrelevant. I mean, may, may or may not be. The sign is just that. It's a sign the Holy Spirit has baptized. The gift of tongues does not require, but often invites an interpretation. Now, their Pentecostals, they're very sensible about this, and that is that if a person is going to exercise the gift of tongues and a mixed audience, that doesn't mean gender mixed, but mixed and saved and unsaved and so forth. Okay? If you're going to exercise the gift of tongues in a mixed audience, then normally there will be a Holy Spirit inspired interpretation so that the language makes sense to the outsider. We don't want the outsider to go away appalled thinking these people are crazy. We want them to be informed, to be edified. So that's the key term, is that the gift of tongues should edify both believers and especially non believers. [00:21:52] Speaker A: So that's the true litmus test then? Or should be. [00:21:56] Speaker B: Have you puzzled, baffled outsiders, or have you edified them? That's the litmus test. And very often, I mean, the speaking in tongues, there's a whole literature about interpretation and people who have heard their whole lives interpreted in ways that the speaker could not possibly know. But then again, there are a whole group of people who became gifted as interpreters. And I grew up in a central assembly of God in Springfield, Missouri, in which there were certain individuals who were renowned for their ability to hear a message in tongues and then to render it in the vernacular. And if you analyze those, that language, I mean, as I tried to do and I worked on it, I thought there was just an extraordinary amount of repetition in the interpretation because it was routinized, you know, oh, my little children, my little flock, gather unto me. And very often the message was. [00:23:10] Speaker A: The. [00:23:11] Speaker B: Lord is calling us to be humble, but in fact we have been proud and we have wandered away and we only need to come back. I mean, he was so rootinized, I withdrew from that. [00:23:24] Speaker A: Let's shift from tongues for a moment because that's absolutely fascinating. But with these other gifts that the healing, just these supernatural encounters within the assemblies of God in the Pentecostal. Yeah. Speak to that a little bit because I'm sure, I mean, I'm assuming a lot here, but you've seen some things happen and you can't explain them by natural causes. Maybe they weren't in it for the show or the attention, but it generally may have been a work of God. [00:23:55] Speaker B: I actually argued for right or wrong. Others will have to judge this, that the initial impulse behind the Pentecostal movement was healing. And in time, within a matter of a very few years, it moved from healing to tongues. But the primary, in the sense of what came first was a healing ministry. And here this fed into a much larger, broader thrust within American culture. And then there's a whole international story which we could go into on another occasion, but say within American culture, this tremendous stress upon, depending on how you interpret it, self help or healing in a whole variety of menus. Within the Episcopal Church, for example, there's this whole Emmanuel movement within the Episcopal Church that draws upon God's spirit for healing. And even today in many Episcopal churches, on a Sunday evening, The Vesper service, 5 o', clock, 6 o', clock, will be a healing service and some Methodist churches. And unfortunately I'm Methodist. Unfortunately not. Not enough. But there must be some Methodist churches, some Catholic churches, where, you know, Mormons, same thing. Healing is so fundamental. [00:25:23] Speaker A: So would you say for those that believe God does still heal in that way, as the great physician, the ones that are actually setting aside designated times of prayer or to potentially receive healing are the ones that naturally are going to experience more of that? [00:25:37] Speaker B: I think they do. I haven't quantified it. But now you. Now what you're doing is prompting me to go to my own pastor and I want to say to him, I think it'd be nice if we had a set aside time for healing. Maybe on a Sunday night. Yeah. Thank you, Todd. [00:25:54] Speaker A: Well, you. Well, obviously you've seen people and doctors can't explain it. Right. It was just a miraculous healing. [00:26:02] Speaker B: To my mind, this is what it is. Now, of course, there are going to be plenty of doctors who say, well, no, you're just making it up so far. I mean, there. It seemed to me that there is no evidence that is so certain that everybody is going to say, wow, you know, where have I been all my life? There's always going to be resisters, sure. But to my mind, there are examples. And it's happened in my own life, not often, but on rare occasions where I have seen and experienced not in my own body, but with others healing that I can't explain any other way. And I'm quite happy for that to be the case. Hey, gee, if the Lord could make me, you know, and could make this whole world, you know, I mean, after all, why not? I mean. [00:26:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think what sometimes back to the forcing, are they influencing those to speak in tongues when they're young? And then there are those that also will say, you need to also be praying for the healing. And if you don't, why should you expect it? Or if you do pray for it insincerely. But if it does not happen, then either you're to blame potentially for unconfessed sin or a lack of faith or trust, or worse than that, that somehow you're blaming God as not being capable or desiring to do that. [00:27:22] Speaker B: See, I saw all those things when I was a youngster in the Pentecostal movement. And again, this becomes too autobiographical and I'm sort of sorry about it, but. [00:27:30] Speaker A: Oh, I'm fascinated by it. And I only want you to talk about what you're comfortable talking about. [00:27:33] Speaker B: You know, I think it's autobiographical. But I'm not alone, you know, there are, I'd say, countless others who went through the same experience. And again, it seemed to me so often when people weren't healed, then the recourse would be, well, there's sin in my life, okay, that I haven't repented of. And so, okay, so that has to be taken care of or it's God's fault or I didn't have enough faith. I mean, there are all kinds of explanations. And what was all too rare was a willingness to say, God is sovereign and I'm not going to govern, try to govern how God will deal with. With humanity. [00:28:18] Speaker A: Well, I think about the apostle Paul, whatever the thorn was that he prayed fervently, prayed for three times for God to remove. And all three times God said no. And then the ending is, my grace is sufficient for you. And then, you know, I've heard others Say that we're all wounded people. Some wounded, some are self inflicted wounds. But without our wounds, where would our power be? [00:28:43] Speaker B: Yeah, that's beautiful. [00:28:44] Speaker A: You know that it keeps us humble, it keeps us prayerful and dependent on God. You know, I have a toothache right now. I can complain about it, or I can, you know, I can go see the dentist, which I will tomorrow, or. [00:29:00] Speaker B: You can get real old like me and have dentures and then you never will have a problem. Never. [00:29:05] Speaker A: Well, it's interesting because I actually have a longtime friend who would say to me, by his wounds you're healed and you don't need to allow that pain to affect you. In fact, you can pray it away. You don't have enough faith, potentially, Todd. Or you're not praying hard enough. And that gets into the whole prosperity gospel of this health and wealth gospel. Let's talk about that a little bit because I'm clearly going to go to the dentist. [00:29:29] Speaker B: But take money. When you do take lots and lots of money. But once you give you enough money. [00:29:35] Speaker A: Can you fix my tooth? [00:29:36] Speaker B: Yeah, but when you have dentures, I mean, you're free. My former student and colleague Kate Bowler, I think has done wonderful work in making clear that we cannot manipulate God. And things happen and they happen within God's sovereign judgment. And we live within that faith. We have to have that faith, that we accept that. And, and if that were only more broadly understood, I think we'd be a much stronger. [00:30:11] Speaker A: Well, I think on one hand God knows everything we need, everything we encounter or experiencing, good and bad and painful, and loves us and wants to help us and care. So on one hand I can ask God for anything, but at the other I have to be realistic to know that the way in which God might remedy this ailment or this problem might come through other people. Because if everyone's made the image of God and God does use people to bring about healing in a sense, and I mean doctors. But then there are those, you know, there are those like Oral Roberts or Benny Hinn in modern times where people will show up at a tent meeting, a crusade of fill in Arena. [00:30:52] Speaker B: Kathryn Kuhlman. [00:30:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And they literally, they're going there in the anticipation of being healed. Now, I've been fascinated by this because it seems like potentially because of the faith, naivety, whatever you want to call it, of the person. There are people in the, you know, say 10,000 people in arena that you and I both know that there may be actually some true healings that occur. And yet there are many that are probably fabricated or they just don't happen at all. Talk about that a little bit. [00:31:25] Speaker B: I go back to Kate and there's a line in her book. Well, she's written several, so I'm not sure which book it is now. But a line that has meant a lot to me. She said, christians are people who worship the baby who was born to die. And you unpack that, that we are a people who, who worships God. We worship God incarnate in Jesus Christ, but at the same time, that baby died and was born to die. And there is the reality of sin, infinitude. And, you know, and this is what is too easy to lose sight of. [00:32:15] Speaker A: So you're saying God in Christ being fully God, fully man. The God, man, born to die. [00:32:21] Speaker B: Born to die. [00:32:21] Speaker A: And that was inherent because of taking on the flesh, which means he was also fully could truly be tempted. But then he dies. And then the whole crux of Christianity, First Corinthians 15, it's about the resurrection. And so he shows Christ by not just dying, but by rising again, that he's more powerful than death and sin and disease and all these things, toothaches, all these things that plague us. And so therefore, as Christians, then you're saying that would be our hope too, is that we know we're dying, we know we're deteriorating. [00:32:54] Speaker B: And that's the next paragraph. I mean, actually, the line that I just quoted from Kate is at the end of a chapter. I'm sure that if she were sitting here, she said, yeah, that's the beginning of the next chapter. I mean, absolutely, that's all part of it. But what we lose sight of in the particular conversation about the healing is that we die, we suffer, and we all do. And that's just part of our lives. And the cross we bear is being humans. And yeah, there are healings that take place. I mean, Lazarus was raised from the dead, but he did die again. [00:33:33] Speaker A: Right. I mean, as did those raised with Christ at the resurrection. They died again, too. [00:33:39] Speaker B: Yeah, they, you know, Lazarus did die. He just, you know, there was a delayed in all this. Yeah. But I think Pentecostalism has done enormous amount of good and only look in the U.S. i mean, the world seen as a whole, much bigger story. I mean, I had. I'm going to try to teach a course on world Christianity in my church in the Falls. I've been looking, poking around, and probably about 1.2 billion Catholics in this world, but maybe 600 million Pentecostal Charismatics and the second largest Christian movement on the planet. [00:34:21] Speaker A: 600 million in the world today, Pentecostal. [00:34:24] Speaker B: That's, you know, you can't nail that down with precision. But religious demographer are moving in that direction. 600 million. More than a half a billion people are charismatic Pentecostal. Well, there has to be a reason. These things just don't happen by accident. So for a movement to have grown this fast around the world and touched this many people, obviously it has done them a huge amount of good. It's done the church a lot of good. And I'm one of the. Ultimately, I think American Pentecostals did some things that harm people, including me. But at the same time, the global movement has done a vast amount of good for Christianity. [00:35:17] Speaker A: David Steinmetz, who. Colleague for many years I had him. I know he once said the role of historian is to. What was it? Dig up or uncover the dead people and let them speak. [00:35:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:35:31] Speaker A: And you've done that. [00:35:33] Speaker B: Well, well, actually I said that and he stole my line. [00:35:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:35:36] Speaker B: Yeah. But we went back and forth for years as to who actually said it first. [00:35:39] Speaker A: Okay. [00:35:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:40] Speaker A: And so for those listening, those aspiring historians. Historians, the armchair historians or whatever, that's an important lesson, right. Is that you. You essentially dig up through the writings, but let them speak, but always be fair. [00:35:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the questions you ask are extremely important questions, but they were focused on, you know, particular aspects of how the gift and theology of tongues has functioned. [00:36:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:13] Speaker B: And how it affected me and many others that I knew. And so that particular part of it, I think, was unfortunate. The larger movement has done a great deal of good. And you'd have to talk with a lot of other historians. It does seem to me, actually, though I never thought about it until this second global Pentecostalism has more to say for itself positively than what's happened here in the US because here it has gotten so wrapped up in prosperity, materialism, a commitment to certain kind of partisan political message. And that is not nearly as evident in the global movement. [00:36:59] Speaker A: So with the global movement, and you're saying there are definitely more positives, could you elaborate on just some of those characteristics? [00:37:05] Speaker B: I think that from what I know, and there are many people know far more about it than I, but from what I know, I think globally, people have been healed, both in the very tangible sense. Physical ailments have come into healing, and their lives have been healed. Their marriages, their churches. And there's prosperity in the good sense of the word, and there's also prosperity in the material sense. And the people, I mean, after all, you know, we Americans are kind of prone to, you know, sneer about these things. But after all, an awful lot of people are suffering financially and they don't know where the next meal is coming from. And what Pentecostalism globally has taught, particularly with men, is a rigorous lifestyle, asceticism, giving up certain kinds of habits, both with reference to, shall we say, male behavior, can unpack that. With reference to recreational activities, can unpack that. Pentecostalism has curtailed a lot of those activities that have harmed society, societies and harm families. And you don't have to be a Christian, you have to be a Pentecostal to see this. There are plenty of secular anthropologists who will say that Pentecostalism has done a great deal to affirm underdeveloped societies and to give particularly women, women a voice and a place that they did not have before. Yeah. So it seems to me the, the global movement's a whole lot has a lot more say positively for it. [00:38:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And so for some of listeners, which there will be Christians, non Christians, Christians of various stripes or types or whatever it sounds like within the Pentecostal movement, some things that we can take from it in a positive way are to be open. [00:39:12] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:39:12] Speaker A: You know, to be prayerful, to know that God is bigger. Right. And sovereign. You mentioned as well. [00:39:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And there's a great deal of, I say globally too, what we see is of self abnegation, willingness to take up your cross and to carry it. Not just take it up, but to take it and carry it. And I have a student. I won't name this student because I want, I may not get exact details exactly right, but a student in the Divinity School who I admire greatly, who actually walked from Boston to San Francisco. [00:39:57] Speaker A: Two years ago, literally walked from Boston to San Francisco. [00:40:01] Speaker B: It took him over a year to do it. I mean, he stopped and had to work here and there to make a living. But he walked from Boston, San Francisco to rock raise money for an orphanage. And I believe it is in Uganda, a Catholic orphanage. And now I don't know if I. Is he Pentecostal? I don't know. Those lines blur. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He's Christian and the Lord is calling him, call him to make, to be able to make a contribution to an orphanage where the money is dearly needed and there are Americans who have the money to give. And I just, I just think that it's a wonderful kind of thing and it's inspiring and it's what I find Divinity students doing. It's one of the reasons I love teaching in the Divinity school. [00:40:52] Speaker A: Well, one of the reasons why I enjoyed being there as a student and even going back since, and my son is a student there now. But it does. It's a big tent. It. It leaves room for ecumenical conversation and dialogue to learn from those you would have never encountered, to have your own seat at the table to hopefully provide wisdom or knowledge or experience that they've never heard about. [00:41:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:41:18] Speaker A: As opposed to one denominationally, you know, run seminary or whatever, which. Those are fine. And that might be the best fit, you know, for a lot of people. But I think that's one thing I experienced at Duke, and you as a historian, as a professor, I mean, you truly are. Now you're going to show humility, even in response to this. But when I talk about you to other people, I will say, grant Wacker is probably one of the most fair and honest men I've ever met in my life. And I mean that. [00:41:49] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:41:50] Speaker A: Because I would sit in a classroom with people who were atheist, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Assemblies of God, and we all felt welcome and equal. [00:42:00] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:42:01] Speaker A: And I would say that has to be a goal. [00:42:03] Speaker B: Well, thank you. It was. And no, I didn't always execute it perfectly, but that was the goal and I learned it from others. And actually, there are an awful lot of people at Duke Divinity School, I'd say most people, actually not a lot. Most people who are there and talk about David Steinman. So when I went to Duke in 1992, he said, this building is filled with earnest students and faculty who wish to live a Christian life. And I love that word earnest. That word gets misused all the time. But what he wants me saying is people who really want to do the right thing. And that's remarkable thing about that. I'm sure it's true many seminaries, but at least that one was. And you know, most people there could make a whole lot more money doing other things. [00:43:04] Speaker A: Sure. [00:43:06] Speaker B: I mean, a lot more, a lot of fame, you know, who knows all the things they could do. But they have committed their lives to, well, at a very palpable level, making this a better world. But more than that, to giving people a spiritual dimension, gift and to bring them closer to God and bring them to faith. [00:43:32] Speaker A: And I think the polarization in our culture and even within theological circles or pockets of religion, there is a lot of division. And based on your experience, your decades of just living as a Christian, can you just share some advice on. I mean, I've Alluded to some of it before, but that just might help us all to learn and to maybe be more patient and to just improve. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Well, gosh, I just turned 80. Okay, now, here's where, Todd, you're supposed to say. Oh, you don't. Look at. [00:44:05] Speaker A: You don't at all. You still had hair. [00:44:06] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean, I was 79 anyway. But, you know, so just. So based upon eight decades of walking this planet. Gosh, that's a wonderful question. Maybe listen and assume that the other person has reasons for doing and thinking and saying what they think. And we historians have to learn. And I, boy, I'm the first one to have to learn. I think let the subject person, the persons we're dealing with, the subjects of our inquiry, let them have the first word. That doesn't mean that they have to have the final word. In fact, I don't think we should allow them to have the final word, because, after all, that's what God gave me a job to do, is to interpret things as best as I can. Okay. That's my job. Okay. But they need to have the first word, and then they have to have the right to critique my final word. And then we're kind of back to where we started on this. But, you know, I take this from Richard Bushman, again, let them have the first word and then the opportunity to critique, to judge, to challenge me in my final interpretation and to treat everyone as if they know what they're talking about when it comes to knowing their own life situation. [00:45:43] Speaker A: So grace sounds like Grace. [00:45:44] Speaker B: Grace, yeah. Yeah, That's. That's the word I was looking for. Yeah. Such a big word, you know, but grace, I mean, yeah, just show some grace. Yeah. And if we could do that. And I think that we did do that. We. I mean, the whole community, Duke Divinity School sought grace music. This is something. I'm not a musician, but we talked about this earlier and elsewhere. We had many wonderful conversations over lots of cups of coffee. But so much of our faith does reside within our music. [00:46:21] Speaker A: I agree. [00:46:22] Speaker B: And, you know, to this day, you know, I hear Fanny Crosby hymns. I get all teary, and I'm not a musician at all. But, you know, when I hear you, to God, you know, be the glory. [00:46:36] Speaker A: It touches the soul. [00:46:37] Speaker B: It does. It does. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I used to. You may have heard me say it in class that I used to tease classes, sort of tease them and say, if it weren't for Charles Wesley, we never would have heard of John. [00:46:50] Speaker A: Right. All the hymns. [00:46:52] Speaker B: I think you can make that case. And in fact, recently we were one of my Sunday school classes, we were talking about the interpretation of the Bible and all these ways of interpreting it. And one of the men in the class who. Who is retired and he's a Beatles expert, an aficionado and musician, and he says, you know, when we are in worship in most churches, in the pew ahead of us, behind the pew ahead of us, there are two books. There are two books. And most of us know what's in one of those books better than in the other. We like to think that way. We started by. Well, we're actually those hymns. The hymns. [00:47:40] Speaker A: And that being the case. So they had such a rich. It's such a part of your life and might as well. I've had some say, you know, get rid of the hymnals, go to the screens, whether you have the hymns on the screens or not. But in other words, do away with the hymns. And I've noticed. [00:47:55] Speaker B: Do away with them. [00:47:56] Speaker A: I've noticed a trip trend that there are a lot of contemporary churches that they're not there. It's all the modern music and there's no hymns. What would you say about that? [00:48:05] Speaker B: Well, because I am not a musician and stress that, I wouldn't try to say that. Certain. I wouldn't say that everybody ought to be familiar with Charles Wesley and with Isaac Watts. I mean, you know, I mean, those are the hymns that mean something to me. Contemporary Christian music does not worship music does not. But that's a generational issue. And I'm quite aware that there are many Christians who find, you know, the contemporary music far more meaningful than the, you know, the classics. So whatever form it comes in, that's negotiable according to age and place. And. But what we need to be aware of is the multiple ways that God speaks to us, and not only through hymns, but also through art, whether it be in high art, stained glass windows. I mean, you know, again, I will not use names because I may not get it exactly straight, but I know that one of my colleagues in the Divinity school talked about once to me, and somebody would never have expected this, that one day when he was in Duke Chapel and the sun was shining through that stained glass window and the choir was singing Be Thou My Vision. And he said this transformed my life. This was not the kind of person you think would say that. And he wouldn't normally go around and say, but he says it's the combination of the staying going and the music and the architecture of the chapel. This was transformative. And for Us to be aware of the multiple ways that God can speak to us. Yeah. [00:49:50] Speaker A: The myriad ways in which God as the Creator inspires so many artists and musicians and theologians and writers and to be aware of God in each one of those contexts. [00:50:02] Speaker B: My own church baby baptism this past Sunday. I mean, just the beauty of the baby baptism. And, you know, this is something that is so, in a sense, common, but radically not common, you know, and the baptismal vows that the parents take, you know, there's something very sweet and precious. And every time we have Eucharist in my church, there's been an awful lot. We don't want get into it now, but awful lot of controversy in the Methodist Church over issues of theology of same sex. Okay. And yet a lot of that is transcended at the table. We come around the table and Eucharist and yeah, you know, we agree, disagree, we can argue about all these theological issues, but somehow at the Eucharist, there's something really powerful that takes place. [00:51:00] Speaker A: We're all equal at the table. [00:51:02] Speaker B: We're all equal. Absolutely. We're all equal. And we may disagree about other things, but. Yeah. [00:51:08] Speaker A: You shared with me one time one of the most powerful stories I've ever heard. And you may not want to share it here, and I'll try to prompt you. You can determine whether you want to or not. But one time at the Eucharist table at your church, you were asked to be the one, one of the ones to administer. Do you know what story? [00:51:25] Speaker B: Oh, I do, yeah. [00:51:26] Speaker A: If you don't want to say, it's okay. Well, I just remember how moving it was. [00:51:29] Speaker B: It was. And it was transformative for me. And let me just finesse it and just say that I think that I've had experiences at Eucharist in which people of, say, radically different social locations have come together back to back, side by side. And to see these people of such radically different, I'll say, social locations, and they're all equal at the table. And I remember once speaking to a pastor about this, and the pastor was a woman, and she said, so what else is the church? What else is the church? And, boy, these are words that have rung in my consciousness now for many, many years. And if the church can't be that, then we might as well close it up and do something. Well, we might as well give the job to the Roman Club. And, you know, if the church is nothing but a place where we behave ethically, well, Rotary Club can do that better than we can. The church has to have something that is, well, showy. Your world theological language. The church has to be ontologically different. It is not a civic club, it's not a booster club, but it is something that speaks to the salvation of people's souls. [00:53:13] Speaker A: A hospital for sinners. Right, Right. [00:53:15] Speaker B: And if the church doesn't do that, then why bother? That makes sense to you? [00:53:21] Speaker A: It does. Well, I think that to know that we all, in a sense, metaphorically, are lacking or we're ill, we're sick, and we need a doctor and we need help and church should be a place where, you know, it's okay to not be okay because none of us are really okay fully. I know when I speak to 12 step programs or groups, AA, when you walk through the door, you're admitting as much. [00:53:43] Speaker B: Right. [00:53:44] Speaker A: That you know you need help. [00:53:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:53:45] Speaker A: And we're all in this together because we all need help. And really with the church, I think that the masks and the pretense and all that should just stay outside. [00:53:54] Speaker B: And yet over another set, a coffee mug, somebody, we have to talk about this. The church has to be more than a 12 step program, a 13 step program. [00:54:12] Speaker A: That's good. I like that. The church is the 13th step, right? [00:54:15] Speaker B: Yeah. The church has to do something that is unique, that other programs don't do. Or else there's no point. [00:54:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Or why is it needed? [00:54:25] Speaker B: Yeah, why not? You know, and. Or else, you know, why get tax exemption, you know? You know, and so there's just. Oh, you asked such wonderful questions, Todd. [00:54:38] Speaker A: I have a couple more before we wrap up because I need to go. One question I do ask of a lot of my guests is how do you want to be remembered? [00:54:48] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness gracious. I wish you'd ask me that this morning so I could have thought about. [00:54:55] Speaker A: Well, let's come back to that. We'll come back to that. But how do you think you will be remembered? Well, because you've heard the things that I've said about you, and I mean every one of them. [00:55:03] Speaker B: I'd like to be remembered as a Christian.