Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: What I see happening a lot now is if you are not, you know, my political persuasion, if you are not agree with me with my issues that I agree with, people already dismiss others.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:00:13] Speaker A: Without getting to know them.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: Exactly right.
[00:00:16] Speaker A: And you know, I know you and I, I don't think we're the same political persuasion.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:00:23] Speaker A: And we disagree on some issues.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: But we have so much more in common.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Chances are you've probably never heard of the name the Reverend Dr. Gardner Taylor, but I'm certain you have felt the impact of his life and influence. For you see, Dr. Taylor mentored Martin Luther King Jr. As well as today's guest, Dr. Reginald High, who serves as a pastor. He has two earned doctorates and he has been a longtime friend. And through our relationship and this conversation, I think you'll discover that it's possible to be a great friend with someone with whom you may disagree, but also that we can learn to live with and love and serve with those with whom we may differ and yet strive together to make our communities in this world a better place. I hope you enjoy the conversation. I love the fact that we've had the freedom felt comfortable enough to talk about difficult topics and things that we talked about, you know, because I think in our culture today, it's so polarized.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: It is.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: And I think people. There are people who want it that way.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: I think there are people who would not want to intentionally being friends, having meals together.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: Which is crazy.
And from your perspective, how can we improve? I mean, obviously we have our great relationship, but in general with people. Right. Because sadly, churches are very segregated on Sunday for a number of reasons.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: I think that we, you know, we have to be intentional about having conversations and creating community. We can't take it for granted like it was in the past.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: Because it's not happening.
[00:02:08] Speaker B: Right.
[00:02:09] Speaker A: We have become such distance personally from each other. I mean, people communicate by social media now, Facebook and everything. There's very little face to face communication, personal communication, unless it's someone you already know.
[00:02:26] Speaker B: Right, right, right. Sure.
[00:02:28] Speaker A: And so what I see happening a lot now is if you are not, you know, my political persuasion, if you are not agree with me with my issues that I agree with, people already dism.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Without getting to know them.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Exactly. Right.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: And you know, I know you and I, I don't think we're the same political persuasion.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: And we disagree on some issues.
[00:02:56] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:02:56] Speaker A: But we have so much more in common.
[00:02:58] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:02:59] Speaker A: Than how we feel about certain things.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: And that are so much more important than Those things that matter, but they're secondary compared to what matters most. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: And so I think, you know, if we're going to get back to this where, you know, people are able to come together despite those things, we have to be intentional about getting folks to have conversations and getting to know each.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Other and with people.
You know, I think I could ask people, the listeners, I could say, well, how many. How many people different than you racially, politically, socioeconomically, are you even hanging out with or that, you know.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: And I think that's a lot of it. Would you say that that's true?
[00:03:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something you said about understanding.
[00:03:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: That's just something we don't do very well. We no longer, as a society, we no longer attempt to have empathy for those who are not like us.
[00:03:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:03:56] Speaker A: Try to understand where they're coming, empathize. Try to understand why they feel the way they feel, why they believe what they believe.
[00:04:03] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: It's valid for them. There's got to be some reasons behind it. Right, Right. It may not be valid for me, but I can't dismiss it.
[00:04:11] Speaker B: It's not as simple as just looking at someone and going, you're crazy for being this or that. Right, right. If you grew up where I grew up, if you. It's a lot different. Right.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: And so that's why we need those conversations.
And I think, you know, just. Just understanding that. I don't know. I don't know. Really. I don't know exactly. I know there's a lot of things that contributed. But how. I don't know how we got here, where we just so easily dismiss our fellow brothers and sisters.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: Because they don't believe like us or feel like us or. Look, I don't know how we got here.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I know. Well, and I. Look sure. I'm sure there's conspiracies out there. We know the media does whatever.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: But would you say that there are people that.
Well, we know that the tension. The. The tension or the perceived tension and racial bias and racial. Or racial pro. Whatever you want to call it, it's. It gets clicks.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: And it gets headlines.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: And in the media, a lot of people know that.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:18] Speaker B: And if you and I try to call that out or even people would be like, what? Or. Or, you know what I mean?
[00:05:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:25] Speaker B: Because. Because from. From my perspective, there might be some. That if, you know, like, well, what are you doing, Todd? Because you know what it looks like if, you know, someone's Intentions are not pure. I mean, you know, when someone's trying to cater to you because they're using you and your pulpit or you're being.
Talk about that a little bit, because I think people need to hear this.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: All, you know, for me, all you have to do is watch a couple episodes of any reality television show.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:05:58] Speaker A: And it's the drama that draws folks.
[00:06:02] Speaker B: Right, right, right.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: Yeah. That's what they want to create drama in these reality TV shows. Cause they know that's what keeps folks watching. And it's the same thing, I think, in society, media, politicians on both sides of the aisle wanting to create this drama, keep this tension going. Because that know, that keeps people, for some reason, focused and dialed in.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:29] Speaker A: Gets them passionate and fired up.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: Right. Well, and you and I have talked about this before. We know racism's a real thing, and it's. It's terrible.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: And we all need to be aware of that.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: But I think there have been times, back to the drama, where things are heightened up and polarized to where the perception versus the reality are very different.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: You know what I mean? But if that's someone's reality based on sitting in front of that tv, a certain channel each day, I mean, and that's their reality. But I think the way to combat that, back to what you said, is you got to have relationships. You got to be intentional.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: I know one prominent preacher, and I'm not a fan of his. I won't give his name, but anyway, prominent black preacher.
He has been working with a lot of conservative white people to try to find common ground. And one statement he made that I tend to agree with, he said that people tend to overestimate the prejudice of conservative white people and underestimate the prejudice of liberal white folks.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:07:50] Speaker A: All right.
[00:07:51] Speaker B: That's interesting.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I thought it was, too.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: Huh?
[00:07:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think what he was saying was, is this perception, like you said, we get that just because you fall in this group, you must be more racist or more racist or more prejudiced.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Yes. Right.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: And since you fall in this group, you must not be right. And his. His thing was. No. Well, I think one thing, you know, personally, I think one thing we. We really need to do, we need to just take politics out of the church.
[00:08:21] Speaker B: Yeah, we really do. I believe that by that you mean.
So obviously on Sunday, you're not up here. No, because. Because. And I. And talk about that. Because it doesn't mean you're taking out the political views of the people who are passionate about it.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: They can have their views.
[00:08:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And they can be vocal, whatever. But within the church, why are we here? What are we doing?
[00:08:43] Speaker A: It's all about issues today. Instead of individuals, instead of the soul.
[00:08:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:51] Speaker A: And so now everybody's categorized by what?
Individual issue or cultural bias or whatever, you fit in. That's how we categorize folks. Now, instead of. This is an individual.
[00:09:13] Speaker B: Right. Created in God's image.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Right. Individual created in God's image. And they are not defined by this one, two, or three categories.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: They're so much more complex if we'll just take the time to get to know each other.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: No, I agree. Well, because. Because if what you. If what you led with. If I said, who. Who is Reggie High? And you said, I'm whatever. Political party.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: I'm a Cowboys fan, whatever you're going to say.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: And that's what you led with, I would go, huh?
I think above that, you're a child made in the image of God, just like I am.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: And you're a sinner, like I am. And you need God's grace.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:54] Speaker B: And if I see you as that. As opposed to the thing that. And I think that's where we get in trouble. But again, it's not that. The secondary issues, like whatever, politics, sexual orientation, whatever.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: Those things are important and they matter. And they matter deeply to many, many people.
[00:10:11] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: But if that's what I'm. What I'm putting first and foremost is what's the ultimate.
That's minimizing who someone is a child of God, which has to be what's first and foremost. Right.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Because that's where we really are equal.
[00:10:26] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Everything else, on some level, starts to divide.
[00:10:29] Speaker A: Right. You know, and I remember one of my professors, well, actually a professor at Campbell that I had worked with, he once said that Jesus dealt with individuals and not issues.
[00:10:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: But we tend to want to deal with issues instead of the individual.
[00:10:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. That's really good.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: It is.
[00:10:52] Speaker B: And isn't it amazing how he met people where they were.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: And he got flacked for that. What are you doing talking to her? Like, what are you going over there? Like you're with the tax collector. You're with the. And it's like. Yes. Well, why is that? Because they were individual.
[00:11:08] Speaker A: Individual. I like that. And they may have this issue, but I have no idea. I cannot know why they have this issue unless I get to know the individual.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: But we just want to category everybody and put them all over here.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: Right. And I love that reaction to the Samaritan woman. That. And she said, oh, he's someone that knows everything I ever did. Yeah.
[00:11:29] Speaker A: Place to be.
[00:11:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And God does know everything that we have done. There's not a moment where we're not in the presence of God, which is so important for people to remember.
Back to Gardner Taylor. What do you think he would think about what's going on right now? I know you've thought about this, because I've thought about it with some wise mentors in my life that are gone. I thought, what would they say about what's going on in the culture?
[00:11:56] Speaker A: Well, one thing he said, and I pray he was wrong, naturally.
[00:12:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: But one thing he said is that America may well be on the decline, on the downfall. He said, every empire has its day, but then it tends to crumble. He said, America may be at its. May have had its day and may be on the decline where it's beginning to crumble.
[00:12:25] Speaker B: Hmm. And he said that. And that was how many years ago?
[00:12:28] Speaker A: That was probably about 10 years ago.
[00:12:30] Speaker B: 10 years ago. And based on what he said then, and since then, it has. There has been a lot of. A lot of decline.
Where is our hope, though? Let's talk about that. So how would you respond to some young person today? Because I know you work with them as I do, and a lot of them are despondent because they look out and they're like, where is my hope? Where is my future? What's it going to be like? There's a lot of fear.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. A lot of.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: A lot of fear. A lot of fear mongering, right?
[00:12:58] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. And for young people today, I would tell them to put their hope in Christ as much as they can.
Read the word of God, study the word of God, cut out some of these other voices that TikTok so Facebook, social, all these other voices you cut. I'm not gonna say just cut them off, but minimize boundaries. Yes. Set boundaries. Minimize.
And it's even. I struggle sometimes with certain things and have to keep reminding myself. Yeah, okay. But God has the final say. So.
[00:13:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: God has the last word. He's in control, no matter what it looks like.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: I hope that's what people will take from this conversation.
[00:13:52] Speaker A: I hope so, too. I really do.
[00:13:54] Speaker B: Is there anything else you'd want to say, just in General or about Dr. Taylor or parting advice, even to people listening to this?
[00:14:03] Speaker A: Just. I guess mainly just I appreciate your friendship, Todd.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: Yeah, man.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: I think the Lord brought us together. He did, and it has helped me tremendously to have a friend like.
